In this timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dan Neale, Social Lead in the Responsible Investment Team at the Church Commissioners for England, to explore one of the most contested questions in sustainable finance today: how should investors think about defence?

With a background spanning responsible investment, human rights consulting, and service in the Royal Navy and NATO, Dan brings a rare, grounded perspective to a debate often dominated by headlines and binaries. As geopolitics reshapes capital flows, from the war in Ukraine to rising defence budgets across Europe, the conversation unpacks the crucial distinction between investing responsibly in defence-related companies and labelling defence as “sustainable.”

Together, Lorenzo and Dan examine how investor policies are shifting, why regulatory frameworks and taxonomies have accelerated the debate, and where the real risks, and responsibilities, sit for asset owners and managers. From geographic screening thresholds and human rights due diligence to dual-use technologies, controversial weapons, and emerging principles for responsible defence investment, this episode offers a nuanced, practical lens on an issue many investors are now being forced to confront.

✅ Defence vs sustainability: why the distinction matters

✅ How geopolitics and regulation are reshaping investor approaches

✅ The Church Commissioners’ updated defence policy and geographic thresholds

✅ Why screening alone is not enough without due diligence

✅ Dual-use technologies and the blurred lines between civilian and military applications

✅ Controversial weapons, nuclear risk, and red lines for investors

✅ Data gaps, transparency challenges, and conflict-affected areas

✅ Principles for Responsible Defence Investment (PRDI): what they are, and what they are not

✅ AI, drones, and the realities of tech-driven warfare

✅ Human rights responsibilities under international humanitarian law

Whether you’re an asset owner, investment manager, policymaker, or sustainability professional, this episode offers a clear framework for thinking about defence, not as a moral abstraction, but as a responsible investment challenge that requires judgment, data, and accountability.

🎧 Listen now to understand why defence may not be “sustainable”, but why responsibility still matters.



• Introduction: Defense Meets Sustainable Investing (0:48)
• Dan Neil's Background: From Navy to Responsible Investment (2:27)
• The Changing Landscape: Europe's Defense Investment Shift (4:42)
• Is Defense a Sustainable Investment? (6:18)
• Church Commissioners' Policy Changes (8:44)
• Dual Use Technology and the Defense Supply Chain (15:26)
• Controversial Weapons and Nuclear Arms (17:56)
• Principles for Responsible Defense Investment (PRDI) (27:22)
• Human Rights Data and Due Diligence Challenges (33:42)
• AI, Technology, and the Future of Warfare (38:38)

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In this wide-ranging and timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Sáa is joined by Ioannis Ioannou, Associate Professor of Strategy and Entrepreneurship at London Business School. The pair reflect on what the ESG backlash of 2025 has revealed, and what it means for investors, companies, and policymakers heading into 2026.

Drawing on nearly two decades of academic research at the intersection of sustainability, corporate strategy, and financial markets, Ioannis offers a clear-eyed assessment of where sustainable investing has fallen short, where it has matured, and how it must now evolve. From green washing and fragmented regulation to regionalisation, data quality, and the limits of ESG ratings, this conversation goes beyond surface-level narratives to explore sustainability as a political economy and systems challenge.

Together, Lorenzo and Ioannis unpack why backlash was inevitable, how it exposed genuine commitment (and lack thereof), and why the next phase of sustainable investing will be defined by resilience, governance, and long-term system change rather than short-term compliance.

Key topics include:

• ✅ 2025 as the year of “peak ESG backlash”, and what we learned from it
• ✅ Why sustainability progress is non-linear and politically contested
• ✅ Green hushing vs. credible communication: why silence is not the answer
• ✅ Regionalisation and policy fragmentation in global decarbonisation
• ✅ How investors can identify real commitment beyond ESG scores
• ✅ The evolving role, and limits, of ESG data and ratings
• ✅ Why adaptation, nature, and social issues must rise alongside climate
• ✅ Coalitions, alliances, and the future of collective action
• ✅ “Trap competencies”: undervalued skills and capabilities for a sustainable economy
• ✅ AI and technology through a sustainability governance lens
• ✅ The skills sustainability professionals will need in 2026 and beyond

Whether you’re an investor navigating regulatory uncertainty, a sustainability leader facing internal scepticism, or a policymaker grappling with coordination challenges, this episode offers thoughtful guidance on how to move forward with clarity and conviction.

🎧 Listen now for a grounded, research-led perspective on what sustainable investing needs next.

Key Moments:

• 0:00 - Introduction & Guest Background
• 7:01 - 2025: The Year of Peak Backlash
• 15:26 - System-Level Investing & Regional Fragmentation
• 24:39 - Looking Ahead: 2026 Predictions
• 28:11 - Net Zero Coalitions & Alliances
• 33:07 - Sustainability Careers & Trapped Competencies
• 40:00 - Message to Investors & AI Governance
• 46:00 - Quick Fire Questions & Closing

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In this compelling episode of Sustainability Wired, Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dario Mangilli, Head of Sustainability at Impact SGR, to explore how sustainable and impact investing must evolve for a world facing accelerating climate impacts, geopolitical instability, and a post-ESG landscape.

Building on a conversation sparked at a conference in Milan, Lorenzo and Dario unpack what it means to invest in what he calls a “disaster economy”, a world where physical climate risks are arriving earlier than expected, traditional ESG frameworks are losing relevance, and investors are being pushed toward a more thematic, impact-driven approach.

Dario offers a unique perspective shaped by his climate policy background, academic training, and hands-on work designing listed impact strategies. Together, they discuss how to scale impact beyond niche allocations, why systemic impact investing is urgently needed, and how structural trends, from energy security to demographics and AI, will determine where capital must flow next.

Key topics include:

✅️ Impact investing at scale: Why limiting impact to 0.5–1% of pension fund portfolios is no longer viable.

✅️ ESG is over: Why generalist ESG frameworks fail—and how thematic, impact-focused strategies can replace them.

✅️ Climate risk underestimated: Satellite data showing physical risks arriving a decade earlier than models predicted.

✅️ Energy security & the Green Deal: How Europe “sold it wrong” and why sustainability must be framed around affordability and competitiveness.

✅️ Regulation that works vs. noise: SFDR, SFDR 2.0, labels, and why disclosure alone won’t drive capital.

✅️ Systemic impact approach: Applying intentionality, measurability, and impact limits across listed strategies.

✅️ AI as a structural trend: Power demand, cooling constraints, stretched valuations, and why AI could be a massive net positive—with guardrails.

✅️ Defense, mispriced sectors, and the future of sustainability narratives.

Whether you're an investor, policymaker, or sustainability leader, this episode offers a bold rethinking of how we need to invest, financially and ethically, for a world that is already changing faster than expected.

🎧 Listen now to understand how impact investing can become a systemic, future-proof investment paradigm.

00:01 - Lorenzo sets the frame: investing in a “disaster economy”

02:22 - Dario’s path into sustainability & listed impact investing

05:26 - Why impact must scale beyond private markets

16:22 - The post-ESG shift: thematic investing as the new sustainable framework

19:10 - Climate risks arriving faster than expected

21:15 - Structural trends reshaping markets

27:52 - Regulation that drives capital vs. regulation that drives compliance

35:55 - A new operating model for sustainable investing

42:38 - AI as a structural force, and a sustainability challenge

47:40 - Art, metaphors & quickfire insights

51:31 - Closing: Investing for a rapidly changing world

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