In this timely episode of Sustainability Wired, host Lorenzo Saa is joined by Dan Neale, Social Lead in the Responsible Investment Team at the Church Commissioners for England, to explore one of the most contested questions in sustainable finance today: how should investors think about defence?

With a background spanning responsible investment, human rights consulting, and service in the Royal Navy and NATO, Dan brings a rare, grounded perspective to a debate often dominated by headlines and binaries. As geopolitics reshapes capital flows, from the war in Ukraine to rising defence budgets across Europe, the conversation unpacks the crucial distinction between investing responsibly in defence-related companies and labelling defence as “sustainable.”

Together, Lorenzo and Dan examine how investor policies are shifting, why regulatory frameworks and taxonomies have accelerated the debate, and where the real risks, and responsibilities, sit for asset owners and managers. From geographic screening thresholds and human rights due diligence to dual-use technologies, controversial weapons, and emerging principles for responsible defence investment, this episode offers a nuanced, practical lens on an issue many investors are now being forced to confront.

✅ Defence vs sustainability: why the distinction matters

✅ How geopolitics and regulation are reshaping investor approaches

✅ The Church Commissioners’ updated defence policy and geographic thresholds

✅ Why screening alone is not enough without due diligence

✅ Dual-use technologies and the blurred lines between civilian and military applications

✅ Controversial weapons, nuclear risk, and red lines for investors

✅ Data gaps, transparency challenges, and conflict-affected areas

✅ Principles for Responsible Defence Investment (PRDI): what they are, and what they are not

✅ AI, drones, and the realities of tech-driven warfare

✅ Human rights responsibilities under international humanitarian law

Whether you’re an asset owner, investment manager, policymaker, or sustainability professional, this episode offers a clear framework for thinking about defence, not as a moral abstraction, but as a responsible investment challenge that requires judgment, data, and accountability.

🎧 Listen now to understand why defence may not be “sustainable”, but why responsibility still matters.



• Introduction: Defense Meets Sustainable Investing (0:48)
• Dan Neil's Background: From Navy to Responsible Investment (2:27)
• The Changing Landscape: Europe's Defense Investment Shift (4:42)
• Is Defense a Sustainable Investment? (6:18)
• Church Commissioners' Policy Changes (8:44)
• Dual Use Technology and the Defense Supply Chain (15:26)
• Controversial Weapons and Nuclear Arms (17:56)
• Principles for Responsible Defense Investment (PRDI) (27:22)
• Human Rights Data and Due Diligence Challenges (33:42)
• AI, Technology, and the Future of Warfare (38:38)

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