In this episode of As Discussed..., I'm joined by Dart Lindsley - founder of 11Fold, host of the Work for Humans podcast, and former head of business architecture for HR at Cisco Systems - to dig into the idea of work as a product.

Dart's core argument: companies have spent a century misclassifying their workforce. Employees fit the definition of customers, people who choose every day whether to keep buying the product called "your job." That reframe rearranges almost everything downstream - recruitment, onboarding, what managers do, how work gets allocated, and what good performance even means.

What we covered:

• The category error at the root of modern management, and why scientific management's framing of people as factors of production still shapes practice today
• How employees fit the definition of customers in a multi-sided business, and the route Dart took to that model through business architecture work at Cisco
• The limits of autonomy, mastery, and purpose as a design framework, and what Dart found after asking thousands of people what job they hire their work to do
• Negative transformation - the ways work changes us into people we don't want to be - and why that belongs on the cost side of the ledger
• What it looks like when teams co-design their own work, including the four-dimensional bubble chart Dart uses to reallocate tasks based on what each person finds rewarding
• Managers as brokers optimizing flow between two customers, the paying customer and the working customer
• Common pushback on the model: does it scale, is it anti-capitalist, and why bother if the existing system seems to work
• Plus a short detour into the night Dart climbed the Golden Gate Bridge

People referenced

• Dart Lindsley - founder of 11Fold, host of Work for Humans
• Edward Deci and Richard Ryan - self-determination theory
• Clayton Christensen and Bobby Moesta - Jobs to Be Done framework
• Joe Pine - experience and transformation economies
• Daniel Pink - autonomy, mastery, purpose
• Alfie Kohn - critique of behaviorist management ("pop behaviorism")
• Antonio Damasio - on emotion and reason in decision-making
• Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert Sutton - the knowing-doing gap
• Ricardo Semler - Semco's participative model
• Bart Houlahan - co-founder of B Lab, partner at Irrational Capital
• Sandra Loughlin - EPAM, on data architecture and AI
• Semmelweis, Pasteur, Koch, Lister - the germ theory paradigm shift, used as analogy for how slowly new management ideas spread

Books

• Self-Determination Theory: Basic Psychological Needs in Motivation, Development, and Wellness - Richard Ryan and Edward Deci
• The Transformation Economy - Joe Pine
• Descartes' Error - Antonio Damasio
• The Knowing-Doing Gap - Jeffrey Pfeffer and Robert Sutton
• Drive - Daniel Pink
• Punished by Rewards - Alfie Kohn

Podcasts and websites

• Work for Humans - Dart's podcast, 190+ episodes
• 11fold.com - 11Fold's site, including a curated Discord community and an AI search across the Work for Humans back catalogue
• PX Espresso - Luke O'Mahoney's podcast, where Dart appears as a guest
• Irrational Capital - the ETF Dart references that tracks how employees feel about work at the companies they invest in
• AeroPress - the world's best coffee maker
• Connect with Dart on LinkedIn