On episode 250, we welcome Amy Nathan to discuss civil rights icon Sara Keyes Evans, her own decision to not move to the back of a bus, the decades long legal battle that followed, the battle between federal and state laws regarding interstate travel for minorities, Sara's more measured and less aggressive stance on social justice, the values and temperament that were the foundation of her brand of activism, why she was unrecognized for so long, and what inspired her tenancy to fight racism.

Amy Nathan is the author of more than fifteen books, including Together: An Inspiring Response to the "Separate-but-Equal" Supreme Court Decision that Divided America, Making Time for Making Music, Round and Round Together, and A Ride to Remember: A Civil Rights Story. Her new book, available March 24, 2026, is called Riding into History: The Surprising Story of Sarah Keys Evans and the Fight to Desegregate Bus Travel.

| Amy Nathan |

► Website | https://www.amynathanbooks.com

► Twitter | https://x.com/AmyNathanBooks

► Riding into History Book | https://amzn.to/49ULzGC

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On episode 249, we welcome Jack El-Hai to discuss the Nuremberg trials and the recent film about them, the psychiatrist who analyzed Hermann Göring, Dr. Douglas Kelley's motivations for doing so, whether Nazis were monsters and if being human makes them scarier, how the results of Göring's Rorschach test reveled a narcissistic personality, the foundation of evil, Kelley's stifled ambitions and why his social contributions make his work meaningful, and the warnings in 'Nuremberg' about our political future.

Jack El-Hai is an acclaimed author and journalist whose writing has appeared in The Atlantic, Smithsonian, GQ, Wired, Scientific American, Discover, and many other publications. He has written several acclaimed books — including The Lobotomist, The Lost Brothers, and Face in the Mirror — translated into more than twenty languages worldwide. His book The Nazi and the Psychiatrist inspired the major motion picture Nuremberg, which explores the psychological dimensions of the Nuremberg Trials.

| Jack El-Hai |

► Website | https://www.el-hai.com

► Twitter | https://x.com/Jack_ElHai

► Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/jackelhai1

► Bluesky | https://bsky.app/profile/jackelhai.bsky.social

► Linkedin | https://www.linkedin.com/in/jackelhai

► The Nazi and the Psychiatrist Book | https://amzn.to/4bBoBqf

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On episode 248, we welcome Dorothy Roberts to discuss the history of interracial marriage in the US, how it was used to help sustain Black slavery, Dorothy's resistance to and eventual acceptance of being biracial, her disagreements with her father (a fellow researcher) on the benefits of interracial marriages, defining race and why Nazis and white supremacists both struggled to define whiteness, whether love can overcome social injustice on its own, the Black Belt being populated with whites, and how culture and power influence whom we feel attracted to and love.

Dorothy Roberts is the George A. Weiss University Professor of Law and Sociology at the University of Pennsylvania, where she directs the Penn Program on Race, Science, and Society. The author of five books, including Killing the Black Body, a MacArthur Fellow, and member of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences. Her newest book is called, The Mixed Marriage Project: A Memoir of Love, Race, and Family.

| Dorothy Roberts |

► Website | https://www.dorothyeroberts.com/

► Website 2 | https://www.law.upenn.edu/faculty/roberts1

► Twitter | https://x.com/dorothyeroberts

► Instagram | https://www.instagram.com/dorothyeroberts

► The Mixed Marriage Project Book | https://bit.ly/TheMixedMarriageProject

Where you can find us:

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