What if the obsession with tracking KPIs is actually preventing public services from delivering real outcomes?

In this episode, Joe sits down with Toby Lowe, a leading academic and steward of the Human Learning Systems movement. Toby explains why the traditional model of setting targets and performance managing for outcomes is fundamentally broken, and how a Human Learning Systems approach can reshape public services around trust, complexity and continuous improvement.

Drawing on decades of research and his own early frustrations as an arts charity chief executive, Toby argues that using outcomes as performance targets inevitably leads to data manipulation and systemic gaming rather than genuine impact. He shares striking examples from the VW Dieselgate scandal to an £80 million public service contract in Plymouth with zero KPIs to show how shifting the focus from "delivery" to "learning relationships" can drastically improve citizens' lives, even reducing avoidable deaths. This is a deep dive into complexity science, the libertarian roots of modern management theory, and how leaders can liberate their teams to do the work that actually matters.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why 40 years of research proves that outcomes-based performance management universally leads to data gaming and lying
• The moment of frustration in youth criminal justice that turned Toby away from traditional outcomes frameworks
• The VW Dieselgate scandal and the inherent danger of relying on proxy measures
• Why an obesity systems map proves that governments cannot "deliver" complex outcomes alone
• The libertarian origins of Public Choice Theory and how James Buchanan sought to delegitimise the welfare state
• How to build an alternative management paradigm centred on mastery, autonomy, and purpose
• How the Plymouth Alliance eliminated KPIs entirely and slashed avoidable deaths over a decade
• Why data becomes more important, not less, in a Human Learning Systems approach
• How Liverpool Combined Authority broke a low-trust cycle to transition into commissioning for learning
• Toby's secret life as a hobbyist DJ and the exact complexity book he recommends most

This episode is especially relevant for:

• Public sector leaders, commissioners, and chief executives
• Local government directors and policy professionals
• Systems-change practitioners and complexity theorists
• Service designers and voluntary sector managers trying to solve complex human problems

Stay connected:

• Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman
• Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com
• Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/
• Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk

What if we organised an entire council around building social connection?

In this episode, Joe sits down with Tony Clements, Chief Executive of Ealing Council. Tony explains why he's placed social connection at the heart of the council's purpose, and how a Connected Communities approach is reshaping everything from children's services to emergency management.

Drawing on the evidence that loneliness can be worse for health than smoking, Tony argues that local government has a unique locus to build the relationships and community resilience that transactional services alone can't deliver. He shares how Ealing achieved its lowest-ever number of children in care by investing in kinship networks, why emergency management teams are treating the community as the real first responder, and what it takes to shift thousands of daily interactions toward building connection.

This is a deep dive into relational leadership, complexity and why the language of KPIs and "clarity" often gets in the way of the work that matters most.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why the evidence on social connection rarely reaches public policy
• How kinship networks are reducing the number of children in care
• Why emergency response depends on community resilience first
• The limits of KPIs in relational, complex work
• How to balance short-term savings with long-term transformation
• Why the bar for change is higher than the bar for the status quo
• The bravery it takes to stop doing good things
• What AI tools are actually changing inside a council
• The chief executive as "rewilder" of the system

This episode is especially relevant for:

• Public sector leaders and chief executives
• Local government commissioners and directors
• Policy and systems-change professionals
• Service designers working on complex, human problems

Stay connected:

• Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman
• Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com
• Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/
• Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk

What happens when a consultant surgeon embeds agile ways of working into the messy reality of an NHS operating theatre?

In this episode, Joe sits down with Rob McAdam, a Consultant Upper GI and Bariatric Surgeon who also happens to be a qualified Scrum Master. Rob is a rare example of a practitioner who hasn't just read the theory - he has spent years embedding agile ways of working into the heart of the NHS.

For Rob, the "stable team", the "prioritised backlog" and the "retrospective" aren't just agile buzzwords - they directly map onto the most important parts of surgical practice. In this deep dive, we explore how he moved his department away from rigid, linear planning and toward a model that values human collaboration over top-down protocols.

Rather than asking clinicians to work harder inside a rigid system, this work asks a different question: What if we trusted teams to redesign how the work gets done?

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why the pandemic forced a shift to 24-hour sprints - and what was lost when things "returned to normal"
• How a theatre list already resembles a Scrum team, and what that unlocks
• Why traditional list planning produces garbage-in, garbage-out results
• What surgical story points look like in practice, and how they've increased capacity without burning people out
• How proper retrospectives surface the invisible frictions a debrief never catches
• A real example of a tiny AI-assisted fix that's now spreading across an NHS trust
• Why "the HIPPO effect" still shapes medicine - and how Agile challenges it
• How psychological safety and team-led improvement could transform frontline NHS delivery

This episode is especially relevant for:

• Clinicians, surgeons and NHS leaders
• Public sector commissioners and service designers
• Continuous improvement and transformation teams
• Anyone working on adaptive, team-led change in complex systems

Stay connected:

• Follow Joe on LinkedIn: https://linkedin.com/in/joseph-badman
• Read the latest chapters from our upcoming book: https://relationalservicedesign.com
• Master the methodology: https://basistraining.co.uk/
• Partner with us: https://basis.co.uk