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Three waves: first, equality of the sexes; second, the abolition of the family; and third… rule by philosopher-kings?

In Book V of Plato’s Republic, Socrates guides his interlocutors through three “waves” of objections, each more shocking than the last. Hillsdale philosophy professor Daniel O’Toole joins Jonathan and Ryan to explore what many consider the most radical book of the Republic, from its feminism to its sexual communism. Along the way, they take up the questions that stump nearly every student of Book V: Why does the dialogue take such a dystopian turn? What does equality between men and women have to do with the rule of the wise? And why do the men and women of the city exercise in the nude?

Plato's Republic (trans. Allan Bloom): https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9780465094080

Herodotus's Histories: https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9781400031146

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New Humanists is brought to you by the Ancient Language Institute: https://ancientlanguage.com/

Links may have referral codes, which earn us a commission at no additional cost to you. We encourage you, when possible, to use Bookshop.org for your book purchases, an online bookstore which supports local bookstores.

Music: Save Us Now by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com

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Leontius was passing by the corpses of executed Athenians and tried not to look. But eventually, giving in, he ran over and leaned in to stare. "Have your fill!" he shouted at his own eyes. Socrates tells this story in Book IV of Plato's Republic, in part to illustrate his theory of the tripartite soul: the desiring, the rational, and the spirited faculty. It is this "spiritedness," the θυμός (transliterated thymos or thumos), that seems so close to desire but also seems to oppose desire. Ian Dagg joins Ryan and Jonathan to discuss Leontius and the rest of Book IV, including the parts of the soul as they relate to the parts of the city, the impiety of Socrates, and the proper eye color for a statue.

Plato's Republic (trans. Allan Bloom): https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9780465094080

Ian Dagg's Regime and Education: https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9783031373824

Two ways to support the show and unlock bonus episodes:

Download and subscribe to Ekho: ancientlanguage.com/ekho/

Subscribe to New Humanists+ for bonus episodes: buzzsprout.com/1791279/subscribe

New Humanists is brought to you by the Ancient Language Institute: https://ancientlanguage.com/

Links may have referral codes, which earn us a commission at no additional cost to you. We encourage you, when possible, to use Bookshop.org for your book purchases, an online bookstore which supports local bookstores.

Music: Save Us Now by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com

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Patrick Downey, professor of philosophy at St. Mary's College of California, returns to New Humanists to discuss Book Three of Plato's Republic. Why does Socrates permit lies in his city? And why does he kick Homer out? Downey gives answers to these questions, as well as raising others about Plato's attempt to transcend comedy and tragedy in the form of dialogic philosophical drama. We also discuss the ideal location in which to conduct philosophical inquiry (California, obviously), good and bad music, and how to keep your kids young and innocent at heart.

Previous New Humanists episode with Patrick Downey: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/ren%C3%A9-girard-myth-and-the-bible-feat-dr-patrick-downey/id1570296135?i=1000543650312

Plato's Republic (trans. Allan Bloom): https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9780465094080

John Steinbeck's East of Eden: https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9780140186390

Patrick Downey's Serious Comedy: https://amzn.to/4ypQhGK

Patrick Downey's Desperately Wicked: https://bookshop.org/a/25626/9780830828944

Two ways to support the show and unlock bonus episodes:

Download and subscribe to Ekho: ancientlanguage.com/ekho/

Subscribe to New Humanists+ for bonus episodes: buzzsprout.com/1791279/subscribe

New Humanists is brought to you by the Ancient Language Institute: https://ancientlanguage.com/

Links may have referral codes, which earn us a commission at no additional cost to you. We encourage you, when possible, to use Bookshop.org for your book purchases, an online bookstore which supports local bookstores.

Music: Save Us Now by Shane Ivers - https://www.silvermansound.com

Support the show