In Episode 110, following a discussion on social media, Luke talks to Ben Richardson about the language around music therapy, Relational Frame Theory, commissioning, and whether music therapy is actually 'functional all the way down'. You'll be hearing more from Ben at the BAMT conference in November 2026, and no doubt in future publications, but Music Therapy Conversations got here first!

Ben Richardson is a music therapist and the Therapy Lead at the National Online School, a large multi-disciplinary team of speech and language therapists, occupational therapists, creative arts therapists, and therapy assistants. His clinical and academic work focuses heavily on the intersection of music therapy and contextual behavioural science. By integrating Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) and Relational Frame Theory (RFT), Ben wants to build a framework of Process-Based Music Therapy, exploring clinical musical interactions as a rich, complex form of verbal behaviour, whilst honouring the importance of the aesthetic and "felt" aspects of the work music therapists do. Ben is particularly driven by the changing commissioning environment for education, health, and social care, and what music therapists could do to strengthen their position within it. He will be presenting his research on this at the BAMT conference in November.

References

Hayes, S. C., Barnes-Holmes, D., Roche, B. 2001. Relational Frame Theory: A Post-Skinnerian Account of Human Language and Cognition. Springer.

Pavlicevic, M. 1997. Music Therapy in Context: Music, Meaning and Relationship. Jessica Kingsley Publishers.

Törneke, N. 2010. Learning RFT: An Introduction to Relational Frame Theory. New Harbinger Publications.

Links

LinkedIn TMTC: The Music Therapy Charity

Not referenced in the recording, but Chan et al. (2022) a good example (and open access article) of application of RFT principles to music (not music therapy): https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37397135/

Mary-Clare Fearn is a HCPC registered music therapist, neurologic music therapist, supervisor, trainer and consultant with many years of experience working with children, young people and adults across education, healthcare and community settings. She is recognised for her integrative and collaborative approach, combining relational, trauma-informed and neurologic frameworks to optimise therapeutic outcomes for clients and the wider systems supporting them.

She is currently working with children with SEMH needs, autism, and learning disabilities, as well as providing music therapy on a paediatric hospital ward.

Alongside her therapy work Mary-Clare has worked extensively with staff teams. Her work incorporates attachment-informed approaches, including the principles of PACE from Daniel Hughes' Dyadic Developmental Psychotherapy.

Mary-Clare is a BAMT registered supervisor and provides supervision, consultation and reflective support for therapists and multidisciplinary professionals, with an inclusive approach at the heart of her practice.

Early in her career, Mary-Clare established the music therapy outpatient service at Chelsea and Westminster Hospital's Cheyne Child Development Service, supporting children with cerebral palsy, autism, learning disabilities and mental health needs. She has held specialist music therapy roles within SEN schools across Dorset and Somerset. For many years she has been a visiting lecturer at University of Roehampton delivering teaching, workshops and introductory training courses.

Mary-Clare has presented nationally and internationally on music therapy, neurologic music therapy, collaborative practice and attachment-informed approaches. Publications include:

Fearn, M-C., Bailey, E., Mitchell, E. (2026) 'Neurologic Music TherapyⓇ with neurodiversity and autism' Presentation at University of Westminster, Neurodiversity in Action during Brain Awareness Week

Fearn, M-C (2024) 'Neurologic Music TherapyⓇ with autistic clients' Paper Presentation to BAMT South West Music Therapy

Fearn, M-C. & Bailey, E. (2024). International impression. [podcast] Baselines in music therapy. Available at:https://goodpods.com/podcasts/baselines-in-music-therapy-297498/emma-bailey-and-mary-clare-fearn-international-impressions-42878458

Hepper, F., Bartlett, K. and Fearn, M-C. (2021) 'Attachment theory and attachment difficulties: supporting autistic children and young people in residential school settings', Good Autism Practice , 22(2), pp. 51–58 (8).

Fearn, M-C. (2019) 'Edges, Safeguarding and Endings' Paper Presentation at Key Changes Annual Conference, Hampshire

Strange, J., Fearn, M-C., & O'Connor, R., (2016) 'Music and Attuned Movement Therapy; How the Facilitator Mediates Between Client and Therapist', Collaboration and Assistance in Music Therapy Practice; Roles, Relationships, Challenges. Ed: Strange, Odell-Miller & Richards, Jessica Kingsley Publications, , Chap 11, pp 200-226,

Fearn, M-C (2015) 'Flute, Accordion or Clarinet? Using the Characteristics of Our Instruments in Music Therapy' Ed: Oldfield, Tomlinson & Loombe, Jessica Kingsley Publications, Chap 3, pp 76-77

Fearn, M-C. & O'Connor R., (2008) 'Collaborative working at the Cheyne Day Centre, London,' Integrated Team Working; Music Therapy as part of Transdisciplinary and Collaborative Approaches. Ed: Twyford & Waston, Jessica Kingsley Publications, Part 1 pp -55-61

Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2005) 'Music and Attuned Movement Therapy' Paper Presentation at the World Congress on Music Therapy, Brisban, Australia,

Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2004) Music and Attuned Movement Therapy'. Paper presentation at the British Society of Music Therapy, London

Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2003) 'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts', BJMT, Vol 17(2) pp 67-75

Fearn M-C., & O'Connor R., (2002) 'The whole is greater than the sum of its parts', Paper Presentation at World Congress of Music Therapy, Oxford

Dr Sami Alanne, DMus, music therapist, training psychotherapist, psychoanalyst, is an Adjunct/Associate Professor of music therapy and a researcher at the University of the Arts Helsinki. His studies include traumas, refugeeism, mental health, psychoanalysis, and psychotherapy relating to music, culture, philosophy, and society. He is the author of the books The Theory and Practice of Psychodynamic Music Psychotherapy (Barcelona Publishers) and Music, Music Therapy and Refugees: Aspects of Trauma (Palgrave Macmillan).

Dr Alanne graduated as a music therapist at the Sibelius Academy in 1999 and the Master of Philosophy in music therapy at the University of Jyväskylä in 2001. He has worked in music therapy and mental health fields for over 30 years. As a music therapist and a psychotherapist, he has worked with children, adolescents, their families, and adult clients providing individual and group therapy at his private practice and health care company Apollo Terapiapalvelut (Apollo Therapy Services) in Helsinki. Besides his clinical work, during his career Alanne has been actively teaching, supervising, doing research, project work, and media appearances relating to music therapy, psychotherapy, health care, social welfare, and mental health services.

In 2010, Alanne was awarded the title of Doctor of Music at the Sibelius Academy. His published dissertation was Music Psychotherapy with Refugee Survivors of Torture. In 2011, Alanne graduated as a psychodynamic music psychotherapist at the University of Oulu, and in 2013, as a trainer psychotherapist in music psychotherapy at the University of Oulu, Faculty of Medicine. After his special advanced level training of music psychotherapy at the University of Oulu in Finland, Alanne published another monograph Musiikkipsykoterapia (2014) in Finnish that was a study of psychodynamic music therapy theory, methods, and research.

Since then, Dr Alanne continued his research and teaching of music therapy and psychotherapy: He has published several peer-reviewed scientific articles and books and presented them at multiple international conferences. During 2017–2019, he was a member of specialist group and project PALOMA (Developing National Mental Health Policies for Refugees at the National Institute for Health and Welfare in Finland. In 2021, Alanne was awarded with a Title of Docent in music therapy (Adjunct/Associate Professor) indicating high level research and teaching competence at the University of the Arts Helsinki (Uniarts Helsinki), and Uniarts Helsinki`s Sibelius Academy, and CERADA (The Center for Educational Research and Academic Development in the Arts). After that he has also worked as a visiting researcher at the Uniarts Helsinki`s Research Institute. In 2022, Dr Alanne graduated as a psychoanalyst and a trainer psychotherapist at the Therapeia Institute and the University of Helsinki, Faculty of Medicine.

References

Alanne, S. (2010). Music Psychotherapy with Refugee Survivors of Torture. Interpretations of Three Clinical Case Studies. Sibelius Academy, Music Education Department, Studia Musica 44.

Alanne, S. (2014). Musiikkipsykoterapia. Teoria ja käytäntö. [Music Psychotherapy. Theory and Practice.] Acta Universitatis Ouluensis D Medica 1248.

Alanne, S. (2023). The Theory and Practice of Psychodynamic Music Psychotherapy. Dallas, TX: Barcelona Publishers.

Alanne, S. (2025). Music, Music Therapy, and Refugees: Aspects of Trauma. Cham: Palgrave Macmillan.

This is the second instalment of Anita Connell's recorded interviews from the Australian Music Therapy Conference, following on from episode 104.

Dr Grace Thompson is a registered music therapist and Associate Professor in Music Therapy at the University of Melbourne. Grace has lived experience of disability, and has worked with disabled children, young people and their families for over 20 years within the early childhood and special education sectors. As part of her PhD research, Grace developed and evaluated a collaborative approach to music therapy practice with families guided by ecological theories and family-centred philosophy. Her research continues to explore the ways music therapists can foster relationships and social connection through participating in engaging and accessible music making. Grace is past president of the Australian Music Therapy Association, author of "Goal Processes in Music Therapy Practice", and co-editor of the book "Music Therapy with Families: Therapeutic Approaches and Theoretical Perspectives". She is currently Editor of the Nordic Journal of Music Therapy. The song "Make Your Own Kind of Music" (performed by Cass Elliot, written by Barry Mann & Cynthia Weil) captures the sentiment of Grace's music therapy practice and research.

Brodie Henry (she/they) is a d/Deaf Registered Music Therapist working in Special Education for many years. She embeds Key Word Sign in her clinical practice and is often called on for her skills in Auslan to support students. Brodie embeds advocacy and principles of disability justice in her daily work to ensure children are appropriately supported in their emotional, developmental, and therapeutic needs in order to thrive.

Zoë Kalenderidis (she/her) is a disabled and Hard of Hearing Registered Music Therapist based in Narrm/Melbourne. Her work centres on promoting wellbeing and equitable access to music-making. She holds a Bachelor of Contemporary Music (Voice) from Southern Cross University and a Master of Music Therapy from the University of Melbourne. Since the inception of the Melbourne Youth Orchestra's Adaptive Music Bridging Program, Zoë has served as musical director of the Foundation Groups, supporting disabled children who experience significant barriers to music education. The program fosters accessible ensemble playing using adaptive or standard instruments tailored to each child's interests and needs. Zoë is interested in d/Deaf and disabled aesthetics in music, exploring how musical experiences and creative expression are shaped by diverse modes of listening, embodiment, and sensory perception. She seeks to challenge conventional notions of music-making while celebrating and valuing the artistry of disabled musicians. She is also a published author and co-author, with research that amplifies the visibility and contributions of disabled musicians and Registered Music Therapists.

Rob Devlin is a Registered Music Therapist with over 18 years' experience and is also a Director of Sound Expression. He was previously Senior Music Therapist and Head of Business Development for Nordoff-Robbins Music Therapy Australia. He completed his Masters in Creative Music Therapy through Western Sydney University. He values the use of interactive, improvisational music therapy, as embodied by the Nordoff-Robbins philosophy and approach to clinical music therapy.

Rob has extensive experience as a music therapist with many clinical populations, including children and adults with a wide range of disabilities, neuro-divergent children, adolescents and adults with mental health diagnoses, rehabilitation work with clients who have had strokes, acquired brain injuries and spinal cord injuries. He also has extensive experience providing music therapy in aged care settings including clients with dementia. Before coming to music therapy, Rob had many years' experience in the corporate world in various senior sales and marketing roles. He left that world behind to focus on his passion, which is using music to help others live a more fulfilled and rewarding life.

Tamar Hadar, PhD, is co-head of the Music Therapy Program at the School of Creative Arts Therapies, University of Haifa, where she leads the program together with Dr. Maayan Salomon-Gimmon. She completed her M.A. and PhD in Music Therapy at Bar-Ilan University. Her doctoral research - supervised by Prof. Dorit Amir - compared clinical improvisation and jazz improvisation. Tamar's first postdoctoral fellowship was at NYU under the mentorship of Prof. Kenneth Aigen, where her work centered on analyzing Nordoff and Robbins's clinical improvisations and developing a theory of time around them. Her second postdoctoral fellowship, under Dr. Tal-Chen Rabinowitch, focused on applying a sociological theory, tight-loose (T-L) in music therapy, alongside a musicological, multicultural perspective.

Tamar is a music therapist, supervisor, and lecturer, working with children and families in an early intervention unit and in private practice. She specializes in child - parent interventions, particularly in the context of trauma and displacement. Her research focuses on clinical improvisation (theory and assessment), music therapy in trauma & displacement, child-parent music therapy, and culturally sensitive music therapy. She also originated a time-model for analyzing clinical improvisations.

References

Benjamin, J. (2004). Beyond doer and done to: Recognition and the intersubjective third. Psychoanalytic Quarterly, 73(1), 5-46.

Hadar, T. (2025). Moments of thirdness in music therapy: A qualitative meta-analysis embedded in Jessica Benjamin's intersubjectivity. Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, 17(3).

Hadar, T., & Aigen, K. (2025). A Theory of Time in Music Therapy: A Model for Analyzing Nordoff–Robbins Clinical Improvisation. Journal of Music Therapy, 62(2), thaf014.

Hadar, T., & Rabinowitch, T. C. (2025). Tight or Loose? Reframing Musical Relationships Between Client and Therapist in Music Therapy. Music Therapy Perspectives, 43(2), miaf018.

Hadar, T. (2024). Parenting in the Face of Trauma: Music Therapy to Support Parent–Child Dyads Affected by War and Displacement. Children, 11(10), 1269.

Roginsky, E., Hadar, T., Midhat-Najami, N., Saada, B., Khoury, R., & Hebi, M. (2025). Breathing war, dreaming connection: Dialogue as an ethical foundation for collaborative work of Palestinian and Jewish music therapists in Israel. Approaches: An Interdisciplinary Journal of Music Therapy, 17(1).

Hadar, T., & Amir, D. (2018). Discovering the flute's voice: On the relation of flutist music therapists to their primary instrument. Nordic Journal of Music Therapy, 27(5), 381-398.

Episode 105 is another interview from Crystal Luk-Worrall. In this episode, Crystal talks to music therapist Hugh Anderson.

Hugh is a freelance Music Therapist and currently runs his own private practice, Thame Music Therapy, in South Oxfordshire. He trained at The Guildhall from 2014-2016 and has had a wide range of experiences working in mainstream and specialist schools and nurseries, as well as in different charity and community settings. The latter included eight years at the charity Resources for Autism in north London, where he was Head of Therapies from 2020-2023. Before training as a Music Therapist, Hugh worked for the charity Kids Company for six years, was a peripatetic piano teacher and was a songwriter and performer within a number of different bands.

Two years ago, Hugh discovered a different kind of improvisation in the form of improvised theatre and comedy, aka Improv. He is exploring the overlaps between Improv and Music Therapy and is currently collaborating with Dramatherapist Tim Goldman to set up an adult community group which combines music, movement, drama and free play to support mental health and group connection.

Hugh is a mentor on the BAMT NQMT mentoring scheme, a clinical supervisor and an active member of the BAMT Freelance and BAMT Oxfordshire network groups.

Improv Blog: https://thamemusictherapy.co.uk/improv-theatre-freeze-tag-discovery-and-saying-yes/

Working with parents in MT Blog: https://thamemusictherapy.co.uk/being-a-parent-of-a-child-in-music-therapy/

In this episode, first Luke talks to Anita, then we hear Anita's interviews with Professors Denise Grocke and Alison Short. Sandwiched between these two longer interviews there are some shorter conversations with Pip Reid, Lucy Bolger, Wendy Magee, Helen Cameron, Catherine Threlfall and Emma O'Brien. This all took place at the AMTA conference in October 2025, in Melbourne.

Emeritus Professor Denise Grocke PhD, RMT, RGIMT, FAMI, L. Mus.

Emeritus Professor Denise Grocke completed her music therapy qualifications at Michigan State University, USA, and holds a Masters degree in Music Therapy, and a PhD in Guided Imagery and Music (GIM), both from the University of Melbourne. She has worked as a music therapist with people living with mental illness, neurological disorders and dementia. She is trained in the Bonny Method of Guided Imagery and Music, and is a Fellow of the Association for Music and Imagery in the U.S. She established the music therapy course at the University of Melbourne in 1978, and for 33 years was Head of Music Therapy. From 1998-2012 she was Director of the National Music Therapy Research Unit (NaMTRU), which she established to promote research in music therapy at a national level. She co-founded the International Consortium of Music Therapy Research Universities in 2002, which enabled large international multi-site trials to advance the Profession. She was President of the World Federation of Music Therapy (WFMT) from 1999-2002, having served three terms as Chair of the Commission of Education, Training and Registration. She co-founded the Australian Music Therapy Association in 1975 and served two terms as its President. Professor Grocke has written extensively on music therapy and Guided Imagery and Music. She is co-author of Receptive Music Therapy (2024, with Dr Katrina McFerran); editor of Guided Imagery and Music: The Bonny Method and Beyond 2nd edition (2019); Guided Imagery and Music (GIM) and Music Imagery Methods for Individual and Group Therapy (2015; co-edited with Torben Moe); co-author of Receptive Methods in Music Therapy (2007) with Tony Wigram, and co-editor of Music Medicine 3 (1999) with Rosalie Rebollo Pratt. In addition she has published 30 book chapters, 50+ refereed journals articles, Cochrane reviews, and online publications. In 2012 she was presented with an Award of Merit, by the American Music

Therapy Association, in recognition of service to the field of music therapy. In 2013 she was awarded a Lifetime Achievement Award by the Australian Music Therapy Association and Honorary Life Membership of the World Federation of Music Therapy, the Australian Music Therapy Association, and the Music and Imagery Association of Australia. In 2016 she was made an Officer in the Order of Australia (AO) for services as a pioneering practitioner, researcher, author and teacher in music therapy, and services to professional Organisations.

Assoc. Prof. Alison Short

Alison Short, PhD, MA (MT), BMus (MThy), GCULT, DipTh, CertIV, RMT, MT-BC, RGIMT, FAMI, is Associate Professor of Music Therapy/Music and Health at Western Sydney University, Australia. Alison trained in the very first music therapy course in Australia at the University of Melbourne, then completed her Masters in music therapy at New York University and her PhD at the University of Technology, Sydney. With over 43 years of practice as an Australian Registered Music Therapist, and 34 years holding Board Certification, Alison's clinical experience encompasses aged and palliative care, mental health and more, in the context of both medical and community settings. In addition, Alison worked for 10 years as a health services researcher on a range of projects and health applications, mostly within the Faculty of Medicine, University of New South Wales (Sydney, Australia). Alison is an internationally recognised music therapy academic demonstrating innovative evidence-based and music-focussed expertise with an extensive publication record and frequent international invitations. Alison's work has been recognised with Honorary Life Membership of both the Australian Music Therapy Association and the Music and Imagery Association of Australia, and she is currently appointed as Regional Representative to the Council of the World Federation of Music Therapy.

References

Gracida, Maclean and Coombes 2025 Music Therapy with Displaced Persons: Trauma, Transformations and Cultural Connections. Jessica Kingsley Publishers

Scrub choir video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w1YtT0qLjDA

In episode 103, Crystal Luk-Worrall interviews Carine Ries. Crystal is a new addition to the Music Therapy Conversations team of interviewers - more interviews from her coming soon! (You can also listen to Davina's interview with Crystal, if you haven't already, as this is episode 91.)

Carine completed her undergraduate degree in Music & Psychology at the University of Leeds before moving to London to complete her MA in Music Therapy at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama in 2010. Carine has since also qualified as a Music and Imagery therapist and GIM fellow. Carine completed her 200hrs yoga teacher training in 2017 and has presented internationally on the benefits of using a combined approach in therapy. She has experience working with children and adults in a variety of settings and with a range of needs, including mental health, emotional and behavioural difficulties, sensory processing difficulties, and profound and multiple learning disabilities. In her private practice Carine works with children and adults offering music therapy, GIM, yoga, and animal assisted therapy.

They discuss numerous topics, including: developing a diverse practice, supporting a team of music therapists, combining modalities, the importance of supervision, making music therapy accessible in the community, and leading from the heart.