Episodes

  • Let's talk about…Tinnitus and can CBT really help?

    Let's talk about…Tinnitus and can CBT really help?
    Feb 2 2026

    In this episode, Helen is joined by Colin Blowers, James Jackson, and Hashir Aazh for a thoughtful conversation about tinnitus and how cognitive behavioural therapy can help.

    The panel draws on professional expertise and lived experience to explore what tinnitus is, why it can become distressing, and the importance of getting it checked. The conversation focuses on how CBT can support people to change their relationship with tinnitus, reduce distress, break unhelpful cycles of attention and anxiety, and live a full and meaningful life even when tinnitus is present. Key themes include acceptance, habituation, flare-ups, and why learning to manage reactions to tinnitus, rather than trying to eliminate it, can make a real difference.

    This episode will be helpful for anyone experiencing tinnitus, supporting someone who is, or interested in how CBT can help people live well with long-term conditions.

    Resources & Support:

    Helpful website:

    NHS information about tinnitus: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/tinnitus/

    More information about tinnitus can be found at Tinnitus UK

    World Tinnitus Congress- https://wtc2027.co.uk/

    Books:

    Living Well with Tinnitus: A self-help guide using cognitive behavioural therapy- Hashir Aazh and Brian C.J. Moore

    Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com

    Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts

    Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com

    Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts

    Credits:

    Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat

    Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee

    License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF

    This episode was produced by Steph Curnow
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    43 mins
  • Let's talk about…loneliness and how CBT can help

    Let's talk about…loneliness and how CBT can help
    Dec 19 2025

    In this episode, Helen is joined by Jackie and Professor Roz Shafran to explore loneliness through both lived experience and clinical psychology perspectives. Jackie shares her personal journey with anxiety, bereavement, and loneliness, describing how these experiences affected her mental health and led her to seek CBT support. She reflects on what helped, what was challenging, and how strategies such as goal setting and connection building continue to support her today.

    Roz Shafran, Emeritus Professor of Translational Psychology at UCL, offers a clear and compassionate overview of how loneliness is understood in research and clinical practice. The conversation explores the difference between loneliness and social isolation, how loneliness can affect people at different stages of life, and what effective interventions can look like.

    The discussion covers stigma around loneliness, access to support and why loneliness deserves to be taken seriously. Jackie and Roz also share practical advice for anyone who recognises themselves in the discussion and is considering reaching out for help.

    Resources & Support:

    If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org

    We have more information on how you can find help and support on our Mental health support services page here: https://babcp.com/what-is-cbt/mental-health-support-services-information/https://babcp.com/what-is-cbt/mental-health-support-services-information/

    The loneliness umbrella study mentioned by Roz is:

    Solmi, M., Veronese, N., Galvano, D., Favaro, A., Ostinelli, E.G., Noventa, V., Favaretto, E., Tudor, F., Finessi, M., Shin, J.I., Smith, L., Koyanagi, A., Cester, A., Bolzetta, F., Cotroneo, A., Maggi, S., Demurtas, J., De Leo, D. and Trabucchi, M. (2020). Factors Associated With Loneliness: An Umbrella Review Of Observational Studies. Journal of Affective Disorders, [online] 271, pp.131–138. doi:https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jad.2020.03.075.

    Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com

    Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts

    Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com

    Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts

    Credits:

    Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat

    Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee

    License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF

    This episode was produced by Steph Curnow
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    40 mins
  • Let's talk about…CBT and the menopause

    Let's talk about…CBT and the menopause
    Oct 17 2025

    In this episode, Helen Macdonald talks with CBT therapist Sally Tribe about the impact of menopause and how Cognitive Behavioural Therapy can help.

    Sally shares her own experience of perimenopause, describes the wide range of symptoms people can experience, and explains how CBT can support those affected. The discussion covers the biological, psychological, and social aspects of menopause, the importance of awareness in workplaces and healthcare, and what reasonable adjustments and compassionate understanding can look like.

    They also talk about the latest guidance from NICE, how to access CBT through the NHS or private routes, and why no two menopause experiences are the same.

    Useful Information

    The British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies (BABCP) is the lead organization for CBT in the UK.

    Find a NHS Talking Therapies service here

    Read the article by Sally on the menopause here

    Get in Touch

    If you have any questions or suggestions for future episodes, please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at podcasts@babcp.com.

    You can also follow us on Instagram and BlueSky at @BABCPPodcasts.

    Remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters.

    Credits:

    Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat

    Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee

    License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF

    This podcast was edited by Steph Curnow
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    38 mins
  • Let's Talk About…Access to Mental Health Services for Refugees and Asylum Seekers (World Mental Health Day 2025)

    Let's Talk About…Access to Mental Health Services for Refugees and Asylum Seekers (World Mental Health Day 2025)
    Oct 10 2025
    It's World Mental Health Day 2025, and this year's theme is 'access to services - mental health in catastrophes and emergencies'. The theme highlights the importance of people being able to protect their mental health in times of global instability. In this special episode of Lets' Talk about CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with Kerry Young, a consultant clinical psychologist specialising in PTSD, particularly among asylum seekers and refugees. They discuss the impact of trauma on mental health, the challenges faced by asylum seekers in accessing mental health services, and the importance of community support. The conversation also touches on the role of interpreters in therapy, barriers to accessing services, and positive developments in mental health support for asylum seekers. Useful Information The British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies (BABCP) is the lead organization for CBT in the UK.For those interested in supporting or learning more, Kerry suggests looking up: Freedom from Torture, the Helen Bamber Foundation, Breaking Barriers, Host Nation and The Refugee CouncilMore information from the European Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Therapies can be found hereFind translated health information from Doctors of the World here and translated mental health information from the Royal College of Psychiatrists here Links to services by region: Find a NHS Talking Therapies service here Wales: https://sanctuary.gov.wales/refugeesandasylumseekers/healthandwellbeing# https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/our-work/programmes/refugee-programmes/refugee-and-asylum-seekers-wales Scotland: https://scottishrefugeecouncil.org.uk/health/#Mentalhealthsupport Northern Ireland: https://www.mentalhealth.org.uk/our-work/research/journey-wellbeing-refugees-transport-and-mental-health-northern-ireland Ireland: https://www.hse.ie/eng/about/who/primarycare/socialinclusion/intercultural-health/mental-health-supports/ Get in Touch If you have any questions or suggestions for future episodes, please email the Let's Talk About CBT team at podcasts@babcp.com. You can also follow us on Instagram and BlueSky at @BABCPPodcasts. Remember to rate, review, and subscribe to the podcast wherever you get your podcasts. You can also listen to our sister podcasts: Let's Talk About CBT - Practice Matters and Let's Talk About CBT - Research Matters. Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF
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    32 mins
  • Let's talk about…Low Intensity CBT

    Let's talk about…Low Intensity CBT
    Aug 11 2025
    Ever heard of low Intensity CBT and wondered what it was all about? Or what it would be like to receive it? In this episode of Let's Talk about CBT, Helen talks to Laura Stevenson-Young, a cognitive behavioural therapist and Director of Low Intensity CBT Clinical Training at Newcastle University and Emily who shares her lived experience of low intensity cognitive behavioural therapy. Together, they explore what low intensity CBT is, what it's like to receive it, and how it can empower people to take control of their mental health. Emily talks candidly about the challenges that led her to seek help, including grief, anxiety, fertility concerns and low self-esteem. She describes the impact of low intensity CBT on her life, and the practical tools she still uses today. Laura explains how this type of therapy works, who it's for, and why it can be so effective. Resources & Support Find an NHS Talking Therapies service: https://www.nhs.uk/nhs-services/mental-health-services/find-nhs-talking-therapies-for-anxiety-and-depression/ More about CBT and BABCP: https://www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. Hello and welcome. Today, I've got Emily and Laura with me and we're going to be talking about low intensity CBT, what that is and what it's like to be on the receiving end. But first, I'm going to ask you both to introduce yourselves. Emily? Emily: Hi, yeah, thank you for having me. I'm Emily, I live in Yorkshire with my fiancé. And in November 2022, I reached out to my local mental health service for a number of reasons, which I'm sure we'll cover in this podcast. I began with a four-week introduction to CBT program, which was in a group setting online. That was in December. And then by January, I began my CBT therapy and yeah, it was one of the best things I've done. Helen: Thanks, Emily. And Laura. Laura: Hi, Helen. Thanks for having us and Emily. So, I'm Laura Stevenson-Young. I'm a cognitive behavioral therapist and Director of Low Intensity CBT Clinical Training at Newcastle University. So this means that I train practitioners to deliver low intensity CBT interventions for many different types of mental health problems, namely depression and low mood, generalized anxiety disorder, panic, OCD and some other problems that can really affect the quality of people's lives such as stress or sleep difficulties and long-term health conditions. So I trained as a low intensity CBT therapist, mostly known as a Psychological Wellbeing Practitioner or PWP for short, well over a decade ago. And I then went on to further CBT training and became a clinical trainer in low intensity CBT. So this is probably really going to come out today, but I'm a real advocate for low intensity CBT, the practitioners who deliver it. I'm so passionate about the work that they do and how they empower people to manage their own mental health within NHS Talking Therapies. Helen: Thanks Laura. So Emily, you said there were a number of things that led to you reaching out to the local mental health services. And I wonder if you're willing to tell us a bit more about what was going on? Emily: Yeah, of course. Yeah. I mean, kind of looking back, I should have done it a lot earlier than I did. It was kind of a lot of things building up over probably a couple of years. My mood definitely was low after losing my granddad and then with different job roles, kind of things to do with that, it was an ongoing thing. And then in 2022, that's when I'd gained a lot of weight, I was losing a lot of confidence, and I was letting a lot of stress at work get on top of me, which then had an impact on my relationship. And then obviously we were just coming out of lockdown as well. So I think that had a massive impact on my mental health. It was definitely, there was a lot of low mood and also anxiety around all I wanted to do was see friends and family, but the thought of doing that was actually making me incredibly anxious and busy places were making me anxious, new surroundings were causing kind of panic attacks. We'd gone on a trip and we were getting on a plane kind of in 2022 and I had a full panic attack getting on the plane. And there was nothing within my brain that was pinpointing what exactly it was. But I think...overriding the kind of that ...
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    37 mins
  • Let's talk about…the Mental Health Jedi

    Let's talk about…the Mental Health Jedi
    Jul 10 2025
    In this episode, Helen Macdonald speaks with Chris Frederick- advocate, suicide survivor, founder of Project Soul Stride, and self-described "Mental Health Jedi." Chris shares his deeply personal journey, from childhood trauma and racial adversity to becoming a mental health advocate and what helped his recovery- and the things that didn't. Resources & Support: If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Brent Recovery College- https://www.cnwl.nhs.uk/services/recovery-and-wellbeing-college The Listening Place- https://listeningplace.org.uk/ James' Place- https://www.jamesplace.org.uk/ Find more information about CBT- www.babcp.com Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. Today I'm speaking with Chris Frederick. I'm absolutely delighted to have him here with me in the studio. He's going to share about his personal history and some difficult experiences that he had in his earlier life. How he ended up looking for help with his mental health and some of the things that helped as well as some of the things that were less helpful and how he's then started using his lived experience to help inform professionals, services and members of the general public about what helps and what helps people to access the kind of support that they need. He's also going to tell us how he ended up being known as the mental health Jedi. Chris, would you just like to introduce yourself and tell us a bit about who you are? Chris: So my full name is Chris Frederick. Born and bred in London, currently living in northwest London. I guess I like to introduce myself. Firstly, is I'm a suicide attempt survivor. I think it's important to get that out there. I'm an advocate and founder of Project Soul Stride, which we'll touch on a little bit later. And, also I'm a mad Star Wars fan. Helen: Oh, fantastic. And you've just mentioned a couple of things, really important things about your background and who you are. Is there anything else that you'd be happy to tell people listening today about your background and challenges or barriers that you've experienced? Chris: I mean I guess if I backtrack to the story that, that brought me to that point, very quickly in the barriers, because they might be things that listeners would identify with. I'm a twin, I'm 55. Growing up for us in the early seventies was a tough time. We lived as a small family of four in a flat in a council estate in Wembley and due to the pressures that my father and my mother who were very young, they were only 19 and 18, and they'd not long been in the UK from the Caribbean. So they themselves were carrying their own baggage, their own trauma, their own legacy and that transferred, I guess, onto us as young children. My father was a very strict, sort of military type figure. A beautiful looking man- if you put a picture of Muhammad Ali at his prime and my father at his prime, they could almost be twins, brothers, because that's how you know, he was tall, statuesque, beautiful green eyes, but on the downside, he had a heavy hand. And you know what I mean by that Helen, he had a heavy hand. He was quite, he was an intimidating character. And that manifested itself in negative behaviour in the house, physical abuse of various descriptions. And we grew up watching and witnessing and being victim of that as we grew up, and this is all within a black community. And then we moved at the age of 11, we upped sticks and moved to Chislehurst, which was a suburb of Kent. So imagine now we've moved from an all sort of majority ethnic community to now an ethnic minority community where we were the only black family on the street. Elms Street Avenue number 60, remember it well. Went to Kenmore Manor, and I remember for the first three years we were two of only five non-white pupils in the entire school. So without going into too much detail, you could also now begin to identify with the certain trends, the recurring themes, the racism of course, the pressures from my family. My parents eventually split up and divorced. My relationship with my twin eventually split. And so we ended up the complete, the family was completely fractured and still is today. And you bundle all that up. I started to experience mental ill health probably ...
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    40 mins
  • Let's Talk About…Digital CBT and Cultural Connection

    Let's Talk About…Digital CBT and Cultural Connection
    May 28 2025
    In this latest episode of Let's Talk About CBT, host Helen Macdonald is joined by two international guests- Tafi Mazikana and Sherrie Steyn who share their journey from CBT service user and therapist to CBT innovators. Tafi, originally from Zimbabwe, opens up about his experiences with anxiety while working in a high-pressured job in finance and how a digital CBT intervention through IAPT (now known as NHS Talking Therapies) changed his life. He talks candidly about the cultural stigma around mental health, what it was like to try therapy for the first time, and his realisation that CBT is about learning practical, empowering skills. We also hear from Sherrie, a clinical and community psychologist from South Africa and co-founder of the Vimbo Health app along with Tafi. She reflects on her friendship with Tafi, the surprising conversations that sparked their collaboration, and the importance of culturally adapted therapy. Together, they describe how Vimbo Health was developed to meet the unique challenges and needs of people in South Africa, particularly in terms of language, cultural metaphors, accessibility, and affordability. They explore how therapy can be made more relevant and relatable, from replacing metaphors like "three-legged stools" with potjie pots to tackling barriers like mobile data costs and mental health stigma. Whether you're a therapist or someone curious about accessing help in a different way, this conversation shines a light on how CBT can be tailored, inclusive, and transformative. Resources & Links: Learn more about Vimbo Health: https://www.vimbohealth.com/ Information on CBT and how to find a therapist If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen Macdonald, your host. I'm the Senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies. I'm absolutely delighted today to have some international guests for you. And in a moment, I'm going to ask, Tafi and Sherrie to introduce themselves. We're going to be talking with them about the experience of having CBT and then some really exciting developments that have happened since. But first, let's start with some introductions. Tafi, would you like to tell people who you are? Tafi: Yes, definitely. Thank you, Helen, really a pleasure to be with you today on this podcast. So I'm Tafi Mazikana and I'm Co-founder and CEO of Vimbo Health, a metal health app that's operating mostly out of South Africa. My background as I've shared, is not as a practitioner. My background is as a patient, of CBT who became very curious, perhaps too curious. So I was living in the UK working in banking and finance, and I was just very lucky to come across the services of IAPT which allowed me to self-refer in this area of mental health. I never knew that one could actually reach out and do something, so that was game changing in itself. But I was offered to have a digital CBT intervention, which was very transformative for me but obviously just left question marks as someone born and raised in Africa to say, well, who's thinking about the African context? Because, as I'll share later, there are things and ways of thinking and speaking that are different and I was just curious about who is going to think about that. And so became more and more involved, in this area of CBT, and in particular digital CBT. Helen: Thank you so much, Tafi. There's lots that we're going to talk about there. Before we start that though, Sherrie, can I ask you to introduce yourself please? Sherrie: Hi Helen. Thank you for having me. My name is Sherrie Steyn and I am from South Africa. I'm actually very fortunate to be from the East coast, so the sunny side, and my background is in clinical and community psychology. I tend towards the behavioural types of psychology. So I've done some ABA or as we call it VBA now and of course a special interest in CBT. So having done that clinical and community psychology, I then went on to do one of the allied CBT training courses through UCL. So I was very fortunate, to have done that. And that's a little bit about my background and, yes, I'm also the co-founder and CSO of Vimbo, I like to say I'm the science, because it sounds cool and yeah, just very happy to be here and share some of our experiences with you today. Helen: Thank you so much. ...
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    45 mins
  • Let's talk about…. mental fitness in sports

    Let's talk about…. mental fitness in sports
    Apr 14 2025
    In this episode of Let's Talk About CBT, Helen Macdonald speaks with Phil Cooper, mental health nurse and co-founder of the charity State of Mind Sport, and Ian Knott, former professional rugby league player and State of Mind presenter. Phil shares how State of Mind was born out of tragedy and developed into an award-winning mental fitness programme, now reaching thousands of athletes across the UK and beyond. Ian talks candidly about his experience of severe injury, depression, and suicidal thoughts after retiring from sport, and how CBT helped him to rebuild his life. We hear how sports settings are being used to break down stigma, encourage conversations, and promote mental health support—particularly among men—and how brief interactions and powerful personal stories can save lives. Resources & Links: State of Mind Sport website Information on CBT and how to find a therapist If you or someone you know needs urgent help, reach out to Samaritans at 116 123 (UK) or visit samaritans.org Find our sister podcasts and all our other episodes in our podcast hub here: https://babcp.com/Podcasts Have feedback? Email us at podcasts@babcp.com Follow us on Instagram & Bluesky: @BABCPpodcasts Credits: Music is Autmn Coffee by Bosnow from Uppbeat Music from #Uppbeat (free for Creators!): https://uppbeat.io/t/bosnow/autumn-coffee License code: 3F32NRBYH67P5MIF This episode was produced by Steph Curnow Transcript: Helen: Hello, and welcome to Let's Talk About CBT, the podcast where we talk about cognitive and behavioural psychotherapies, what they are, what they can do, and what they can't. I'm Helen MacDonald, your host. I'm the senior Clinical Advisor for the British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies Today what we've got for you is an episode about mental health, mental fitness and sports, and I've got Phil and Ian here to talk to me today. Phil, will you just introduce yourself? Phil: My name's Phil Cooper. I'm a mental health nurse by background. I used to work as a nurse consultant in mental health and drug and alcohol misuse. I love sport. And, for some strange reason or quirk of random chaos, I became to be one of the co-founders of State of Mind Sport charity that focuses on mental fitness. Helen: Thank you, Phil. Ian, please, will you introduce yourself? Ian: My name's Ian Knott. I'm a former rugby league professional and I currently am a presenter for State of Mind. I talk about my story, my lived experience of having to retire through a serious injury and then developing mental illness. So I talk about that. Helen: Thanks very much, Ian, and I'm sure our listeners will want to hear more about that later in this episode. Firstly though, can I ask Phil to tell us a bit more? Phil, will you tell us about State of Mind and how it came to be and what it does? Phil: Sure State of Mind Sport began unfortunately on the back of a tragedy within the sport of rugby league, where a Great Britain Rugby League international called Terry Newton, unfortunately took his own life in September, 2010. Sent great shock waves, I think, through the whole sport for such a high profile player. At the time there was relatively little support or mental health support for players at that time. I suppose as a mental health nurse who loves rugby league and sport, I read a league paper on a Monday morning, somebody wrote an article saying how the NHS and the sport should get together to try and prevent suicide. Also, somebody also wrote a letter, again a mental health professional, called Malcolm Rae and Ernie Benbow had written the article and I saw this and thinking, wow, this is Monday morning, I shall write these two individuals- checked with my chief exec, of course, because obviously you have to be doing all these things- and then invited them to a meeting we were going to have in good old health style a conference, that soon changed when we invited a couple of players such as Ian, and they suggested, why didn't we ask the governing body for a round of fixtures to promote mental health at that time or mental fitness. I then found myself in the strange position being ferried to Hull Kingston Rovers Ground to be presented before all the chief execs of all the top divisions with clubs to say, this is a really good idea. It's free. So the sport love that bit and, we'll deliver a session to your players before the season and then a round of fixtures themed around that. So we had a State of Mind round in 2011 and player bought into it. There was very little support, as I said, and they began to talk about it on social media. They wore t-shirts in the warmup before the round of fixtures, but crucially, they knew what it was about, and they were all bought in. Things have grown massively since that time, which has been great for us. And also promoting mental fitness in rugby league, one of the toughest sports on the planet. Helen: Thank you Phil. So can you tell us a little bit more about what you really mean...
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    44 mins