Today on the podcast, we have Dr. Adam Jones from Texas Woman's University and his amazing Master's student, Madeline Schock.

Questions about the FSIS Rating Scale that we discussed today:

1. You helped develop the Facilitative Systemic Intervention Skills measure. Can you help us understand a little bit about why you developed the measure and what it is?
2. How you measure these systemic therapy skills? Can we briefly list the skills and discuss them?
3. The FSIS captures 8 distinct dimensions of systemic intervention skills. Can you walk us through how you identified these specific eight dimensions? How did you determine that effective family therapists were demonstrating these particular skills?
4. Are the skills intended to be viewed as a sequence, like a step-by-step guide to responding?
5. Your research suggests we can now measure and predict therapeutic effectiveness with specific behavioral indicators. How does this evidence-based approach challenge or support traditional MFT training methods? Are there traditions in our field - like live supervision or family-of-origin work - that you think we should reconsider?
6. You are training students to rate therapist responses and use the FSIS measures. Madeline, what is this training like? What has been your experience in working on this research while you’re also developing as a therapist? Have you noticed the research informing what you do in the therapy room?
7. How is your FSIS research changing how you teach family therapy techniques?
8. Talk to me about your collaborations with other universities to implement their own FSIS projects and research studies. How would faculty begin using this?
9. Looking ahead, how do you envision the FSIS and similar research tools transforming MFT education?

Interested in learning more about FSIS and getting trained to use it?

Check out this linktree for more information: https://linktr.ee/fsis8

Dr. Adam Jones bio:

Adam Jones, PhD LMFT-Associate is an assistant professor of Family Therapy at Texas Woman’s University. He enjoys working with students at TWU in research, teaching, and clinical training. His research looks at therapist skill development. He is a co-developer of the Facilitative Systemic Intervention Skills measure with Dr. Myrna Friedlander. He directs an awesome team of raters who rate therapist responses to challenging vignettes. He has a small private practice and provides therapy services at the TWU Stroke Center in Dallas Texas. He also likes to play the piano and the guitar, though he isn’t particularly good at either of them. He can be reached via email: ajones116@twu.edu

Madeline Schock bio:

She can be reached via email: mschock@twu.edu

Today's guest is the amazing Dr. Tequilla Hill! She is a licensed systemic psychotherapist, seasoned somatic educator, healing artist, and mindful entrepreneur with over 20 years of experience in wellness and behavioral health. Grounded in systemic psychotherapy and somatic practices, she integrates talk therapy, meditation, breathwork, and somatic movement to support emotional healing, nervous system regulation, and relational restoration.

As a healing artist, Dr. Hill incorporates expressive arts, somatic movement, visual art, and writing into her clinical and educational work to deepen emotional expression and support embodied transformation. She is proud to come from a family of artists and creatives and feels honored to carry that legacy forward by weaving these elements into her therapeutic and teaching practice.

Rooted in compassion and presence, Dr. Hill walks alongside therapists and wellness seekers alike, guiding them toward practices that nurture sustainable self-care, emotional healing, and a grounded sense of well-being. She consults, teaches, and leads with intention, offering experiences that restore clarity and vitality. Her passion for well-being, movement, and emotional wellness also led her to center her doctoral dissertation on therapist self-care, a topic she continues to champion in her work today.

She holds a PhD and MS in Marriage and Family Therapy from Nova Southeastern University, a BA in Psychology from Florida Atlantic University, and an AA in Liberal Arts from Broward College. Dr. Hill is a sought-after therapist, wellness consultant, and mindfulness facilitator known for her integrative and compassionate approach.

In this episode, we will explore Dr. Hill’s experiences with self-care, sustainable practice, and the power of creative and embodied healing for both therapists and the families they serve.

Dr. Tequilla Hill's website: https://www.drtequilla.net/

Questions we discussed in this episode:

1. Your journey from experiencing burnout in community mental health to becoming a leader in integrative MFT training is fascinating. How did your personal discovery of yoga, meditation, and breathwork transform not just your own practice, but your vision for how we should be training marriage and family therapists? What made you realize these weren't just personal wellness tools, but critical for our clinical competency?
2. You integrate breathwork, nervous system regulation, and body awareness into family therapy training. Can you walk us through how a student learns to use their own somatic responses as clinical information?
3. You're in academic leadership, so you're in a unique position to influence how MFT educators think about embodied teaching and supervision. How do you model somatic awareness in faculty meetings, supervision, and program development? What does it look like when academic leadership operates from principles of nervous system regulation and mindful presence?
4. Traditional MFT training often prioritizes technique mastery and theoretical knowledge. When you introduce breathwork, meditation, and somatic interventions, do you encounter resistance from students or colleagues who see these as 'soft' or non-essential? How do you help people understand that these are rigorous skills, not just wellness add-ons?
5. Your work centers cultural humility and social justice. How does developing somatic awareness enhance a therapist's cultural responsiveness? Can you give us an example of how breathing techniques or body awareness might help a therapist navigate cultural differences or power dynamics in family therapy sessions?
6. In your role training supervisors, how do you teach them to use their own regulated nervous systems to help supervisees develop clinical skills? Can you describe what co-regulation looks like in MFT supervision, and how it differs from traditional cognitive-focused supervision approaches?
7. While your current MFT academic work takes place primarily online, your approach remains deeply embodied. How do you teach breathwork, somatic awareness, and physical presence through virtual platforms? What strategies have you discovered for maintaining the body-based aspects of training in our digital, often asynchronous, environments?

Huge thanks to our sponsor, SimCare AI, for supporting the Learning & Teaching Systemic Therapy podcast. SimCare AI creates lifelike AI clients so counseling and MFT students can practice full-length sessions, get instant feedback, and build competencies at scale, with cases that can align to your specific program rubrics and courses. Learn more or book a demo at SimCare AI. Instructor accounts are free. :)

Today we start our conversation from the premise that therapy is very political, as it has always been. The current legislation movement has affected so many vulnerable populations (anti-trans laws, erasure of LGBTQIA2S+ terms from government agencies and webpages, cancelation of grants supporting gender-expansive communities, prohibition of gender-affirming care for youth, state-specific abortion laws etc.).

1. In what ways are we staying well enough as educators to resist the harm?
2. How does our resistance show up in teaching sex therapy?
3. How do we begin uncomfortable and vulnerable conversations about these topics with our MFT students?
4. What is multi dynamic relational therapy and how will it impact the way sex therapy is taught?
5. How is this model taught in the classroom by Dr. Pennant and what did Jazzy get out of it as a student?
6. How is the practice and legacy of intersectionality different in the classroom vs. in community and advocacy spaces?

Dr. Pennant is an international speaker and expert in neurodiversity, LGBT+ relationships, and attachment and foster care, with a dedicated focus on research in systemic intervention. With a doctorate in Couple and Family Therapy from Antioch New England, Dr. Pennant has made significant contributions to the field, serving as a master trainer for supervisors through the American Association for Marriage and Family Therapy (AAMFT) and has published numerous scholarly works.

Dr. Anthony Pennant's The Colibri Center for Systemic Training: https://www.colibricentertraining.com/the-colibri-center

Based in Seattle, WA, Dr. Pennant operates a private practice where they provide therapeutic support and training, helping individuals and families navigate complex relational dynamics. Passionate about advocacy and education, Dr. Pennant engages audiences worldwide, sharing insights that promote understanding and inclusivity within diverse communities.

Resources recommended by Dr. Pennant:

• Aponte, H. J., Powell, F. D., Brooks, S., Watson, M. F., Litzke, C., Lawless, J., & Johnson, E. (2009). Training the person of the therapist in an academic setting. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 35(4), 381–394. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1752-0606.2009.00123.x

• Lutz, L., & Irizarry, S. S. (2009). Reflections of two trainees: Person-of-the-Therapist Training for marriage and family therapists. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 35(4), 370–380. https://doi.org/10.1111/j.1752-0606.2009.00126.x

• Pennant, A., & Shamoon, Z. (2022). Reflections on implementing the POTT program in a master’s clinical program. Australian and New Zealand Journal of Family Therapy, 43(2), 182–196.

  Full-text (open-access) available: https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/anzf.1492

• Pennant, A., & Shamoon, Z. (2023). Person of the therapist: An ethical training model. In L. Nice and C. Eppler (Eds.), Social Justice and Systemic Family Therapy Training. Springer.

The future MFT and current Master’s student we have on the podcast today is Jazzy Bryant (they/them). Jazzy is a Black and Indigenous nonbinary full spectrum birth worker and systems thinker who is currently working towards a Masters in Couples and Family therapy. Jazzy is passionate about holistic care and reproductive justice as a liberatory and community led framework. Like many intuitive caregivers, Jazzy has always been called to care for those around them. Early on they discovered the power of nourishing bonds and openhearted support in healing attachment, increasing resilience, and promoting self-determination. Jazzy honors and channels their ancestors as they continue to remember and decolonize authentic ways of being and caregiving.

Link to a talk Dr. Kimberlé Crenshaw did about the origins and meaning of intersectionality: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-DW4HLgYPlA.

Questions we explored in this episode:

1. Why is it important for MFT students to strengthen their theoretical skills earlier compared to other counseling related fields?
2. What are some tools to facilitate choosing a theoretical orientation?
3. How do you balance teaching foundational theories while encouraging students to develop their unique therapeutic style?
4. What challenges do your students face when applying theory to practice, and how have you helped them bridge the gap?
5. What strategies have you used to help students broach topics around culture with their clients?
6. How do you think current trends in systemic therapy (e.g., teletherapy, trauma-informed care, somatic-based approaches) influence the teaching of systemic theoretical orientations?

Dr. Merchant is an Associate Professor and Director of the Marriage and Family Therapy program at Abilene Christian University. She is also the Chair of the Department of Marriage and Family Studies. Dr. Merchant is an alumna of ACU (’04) and earned her Doctorate in Marriage and Family Therapy at Texas Tech (’15). Dr. Merchant facilitated a Batterer Intervention and Prevention Program until last year. She is currently the Presiding Member of the Texas State Board of Examiners of Marriage and Family Therapists, and is the state delegate to the Association of Marriage and Family Therapy Regulatory Boards. She has two adult sons, could eat tacos for every meal, and loves plants despite her brown thumb.

Dr. April Nisan Ilkmen received both her masters and Ph.D. degrees in Couple and Family Therapy from Adler University in Chicago, Illinois. Dr. Ilkmen is the Clinical Training Director and Assistant Professor of Marriage and Family Therapy at Northern Illinois University. Dr. Ilkmen’s teaching and clinical interests are related to attachment in romantic relationships and issues of social justice in the field of psychotherapy. Dr. Ilkmen grew up in Turkey, has lived in Canada, and now resides in the U.S. Her immigration experience, and multi-cultural background allowed her to become a culturally sensitive clinician and professor. Her clinical approach is the attachment-based model, Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT), a model that permeates her clinical practice as well as her teaching and supervision methods. Her approach to therapy is informed by psychodynamic models, helping each individual to understand their unique struggles in the past and present in order to facilitate internal change. Dr. Ilkmen practices in Turkish, French and English. Dr. Ilkmen is currently enrolled in Psychoanalytic training program at the Chicago Psychoanalytic Institute and in ongoing psychoanalytic supervision.

Resources discussed in this episode: