Episode 60. Some people retire at 60. Others keep going until at least 67. And some of us, apparently, will still be producing this podcast well into our late 80s if the pension age keeps creeping up.This week, Debra and Peter start with life updates, including a worrying but heartfelt update on Arthur the Basset Hound, reflections on ageing, retirement, and Peter’s upcoming football-fuelled trip to Blackpool.The main conversation then turns to leadership and accountability. When something goes wrong, should the person at the top resign? Or is walking away sometimes a way of avoiding accountability rather than taking responsibility? Debra and Peter explore the crucial distinction between responsibility and culpability, the dangers of victim blaming, and why boards should focus less on individuals and more on culture, systems, processes, and risk appetite.They reflect on how risk aversion can damage leadership, why perfect leaders do not exist, and how charities can build resilience by not relying on heroic individuals. There is also a wider look at public trust, media pressure, and the unrealistic expectations placed on leaders, particularly in the charity sector.In the second half of the episode, Debra and Peter tackle the government proposal to require asylum seekers and refugees to volunteer. They discuss why compulsory volunteering undermines the very idea of volunteering, the risks of exploitation, safeguarding concerns, and the importance of protecting the independence of civil society. While both agree on the value of integration, belonging, and participation, they argue these goals must be supported through funding and collaboration, not conditions tied to immigration status.As ever, this is a thoughtful, lively, and honest conversation about leadership, power, and the role charities play when government policy falls short.YouTube Subscribe: https://YouTube.com/@DSCOnlineMore Debra Allcock Tyler LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/debra-allcock-tyler-8013214/More Peter Wanless LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sir-peter-wanless-b43aa372/Produced by: Directory of Social Change https://www.dsc.org.uk Podcast Producer: José Blazquez