In this episode, Michael interviews organizers of the upcoming IASC 2027 conference: Yanti Kusumanto, Nurhady Sirimorok, and Micah Fisher. Together they discuss the conference's theme, sub-themes, and the significance of hosting it in Makassar, South Sulawesi, Indonesia, a region with deep relevance to commons governance.

The conference website is live! For more information, go to https://2027.iasc-commons.org/

This is the first in a new series of episodes exploring each of the conference's subthemes, so stay tuned for more!

In this episode, Michael speaks with Thomas Falk, a researcher at the International Food Policy Research Institute (IFPRI), part of the Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research (CGIAR). Thomas works at the intersection of research and development, and for many years he has been designing and testing what he calls experiential learning games: structured, face-to-face exercises that help communities understand and address their shared resource challenges. Thomas employs games in the service of a key principle: that the best way to help communities manage their shared resources isn't to tell them what to do, but to create a space where they can figure it out for themselves. And that space, it turns out, can look a lot like a game.

In this conversation, Thomas discuss an important principle shared by many commons scholars: that communities are often better at identifying the right institutions for their own contexts than outside researchers are. The games he designs don't hand communities a solution. Instead, they help participants see the structure of their own collective problems clearly, often for the first time, and then work out the rules they want to live by together.

Michael and Thomas discuss how such games are run, the role of gender in collective decision-making, what it actually looks like to facilitate one of these sessions in a village in rural India, and what the evidence actually shows about whether any of this changes behavior in the real world.

Thomas would like to acknowledge the financial support for his work from the German Federal Ministry for Economic Cooperation and Development (BMZ), the CGIAR Policy Innovations Science Program, the CGIAR Gender Equality and Inclusion Accelerator, and the Co-Impact Philanthropic Funds.

References:

Falk, Thomas, Wei Zhang, Ruth Meinzen-Dick, Lara Bartels, Richu Sanil, Pratiti Priyadarshini, and Ilkhom Soliev. 2023. “Games for Experiential Learning: Triggering Collective Changes in Commons Management.” Ecology and Society: A Journal of Integrative Science for Resilience and Sustainability 28 (1). https://doi.org/10.5751/es-13862-280130.

Janssen, Marco A., Thomas Falk, Ruth Meinzen-Dick, and Björn Vollan. 2023. “Using Games for Social Learning to Promote Self-Governance.” Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability 62 (101289): 101289. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cosust.2023.101289.

Steimanis, Ivo, Thomas Falk, Lara Bartels, Vishwambhar Duche, and Björn Vollan. 2025. “The Role of Women in Learning Games and Water Management Outcomes.” PNAS Nexus 4 (8): pgaf243. https://doi.org/10.1093/pnasnexus/pgaf243.

In this episode Divya speaks with Rachel Carmenta, Associate Professor of Climate Change and International Development at the University of East Anglia. They discuss Rachel’s recent work on the poverty–biodiversity loss association (PBLA) and the idea of connected conservation. In this scholarship, Rachel and her colleagues critically examine how mainstream conservation narratives have often framed poor and rural communities as drivers of biodiversity decline, while overlooking the larger structural forces, such as extractive industries, unsustainable patterns of consumption, and unequal political and economic systems, that are central to environmental degradation and biodiversity loss. They also discuss how poverty is often reduced to income deprivation and how that framing has made conservation and development programs to focus heavily on cash-based incentives and payment schemes. Rachel argues that poverty is way more than income deprivation; instead, it must be understood as multidimensional, encompassing wellbeing, dignity, health, education, security, and access to social services. This broader understanding challenges narrow approaches to both poverty alleviation and conservation governance. Another important theme in their discussion is connected conservation, which emphasizes the interconnected relationships between people, ecosystems, livelihoods, cultural practices, and local knowledge systems, rather than viewing conservation and human wellbeing as separate or competing goals. In this context, Rachel reflects on biocultural conservation and the importance of recognizing the ways communities live with, care for, and understand their environments and what these relationships can teach us about more just and meaningful approaches to conservation in a rapidly changing world.

References:

Carmenta, R., Lima, M.G.B., Choiruzzad, S.A., Dawson, N., Estrada-Carmona, N., Hicks, C., Kallis, G., Nana, E., Killick, E., Lees, A. and Martin, A., 2025. Unveiling pervasive assumptions: moving beyond the poverty-biodiversity loss association in conservation. Current Opinion in Environmental Sustainability, 74, p.101537.

Tebboth, M.G., Carmenta, R., Minas, A., Adelekan, A., Cao, X., Fullonton, A., Kinally, C., Cataldo, N.L., Mander, S. and Shelton, C., 2025. The ‘how’of transformation: Principles for a justice-centered response to the climate and biodiversity crises. Environment: Science and Policy for Sustainable Development, 67(3), pp.7-23.

Carmenta, R., Barlow, J., Lima, M.G.B., Berenguer, E., Choiruzzad, S., Estrada-Carmona, N., França, F., Kallis, G., Killick, E., Lees, A. and Martin, A., 2023. Connected Conservation: Rethinking conservation for a telecoupled world. Biological Conservation, 282, p.110047.

Lapola, D.M., Pinho, P., Barlow, J., Aragão, L.E., Berenguer, E., Carmenta, R., Liddy, H.M., Seixas, H., Silva, C.V., Silva-Junior, C.H. and Alencar, A.A., 2023. The drivers and impacts of Amazon forest degradation. Science, 379(6630), pp. 8622.

Carmenta, R., Zaehringer, J.G., Balvanera, P., Betley, E., Dawson, N.M., Estrada‐Carmona, N., Forster, J., Hoelle, J., Lliso, B., Llopis, J.C. and Menon, A., 2023. Exploring the relationship between plural values of nature, human well‐being, and conservation and development intervention: Why it matters and how to do it?. People and nature, 5(6), pp.1720-1738.