This episode dives deep into conversations around the lived experiences of Aboriginal people, the complexities of black identity, the intersection of joy and rage, and the ongoing journey of reclaiming power and telling authentic stories. The discussion, led by Kyan Mitchell, features reflections on Chelsea Watego’s influential work and her role in inspiring other black writers and thinkers to stand firm in their stories.

Show Notes:

0:00 — Introduction: Connection to Country & Mob, honoring Gadigal people

3:00 — Welcoming listeners and context for today’s special guest

4:00 — Black Thoughts: New book launch and its impact on self-reflection

7:00 — Why rage and joy can—and must—coexist in the fight for justice

11:00 — Personal histories: Growing up surrounded by blackness

13:00 — The dangers of caricature and the right to the full range of human emotion

16:00 — On privilege, working class backgrounds, and finding purpose in intellectual labor

18:30 — Black joy as strategic resistance, spiritual cleansing, and everyday activism

22:00 — Challenging deficit narratives: Healing from imposed identity

25:00 — The violence of race breaking blackfellas & navigating complaints

27:00 — Redefining what “winning” and “justice” can look like

30:00 — Critique of “just be resilient” advice & how it compounds harm

33:00 — Reflecting on generational differences and survival strategies

35:00 — The politics and problems of “intergenerational trauma” narratives

40:00 — Healthy skepticism: Whose interests do mainstream reconciliation and RAPs serve?

42:00 — Rethinking black leadership: Not just a seat at the corporate table

44:00 — The legacy and dismantling of black infrastructure and collectives

47:00 — Reading "Black Men in Suits"—betrayal, gender, and humor as coping

53:00 — Racialized gender tropes, policing, and invisibility of violence against black women

58:00 — Shifting focus to the impact of racial violence, not intentions

1:01:00 — The “newly identifying” phenomenon and its material impacts

1:04:00 — Ancestry vs. lived relationship: Why community connection matters

1:12:00 — Cautions around “lateral violence” language

1:15:00 — Black critique as essential, not harmful: How to grow through challenging conversations

1:19:00 — The importance of joy, safety, and community in black workspaces

1:22:00 — Building collectives, creating new infrastructures, and learning from Proper Now

1:28:00 — Storytelling, songlines, and the nourishing power of black narratives

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#BlackJoy #BlackPower #ImpactPolicyPodcast #IndigenousLeadership #RaceAndIdentity #Storytelling

Listen, reflect, and step into your own story with us at the Impact Policy Podcast.

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• Kate Webber
• 's Aboriginal heritage and connection to multiple nations
• Influence of family (grandmother, mother, and father's service) on identity and generosity
• Childhood experiences facing discrimination and racism
• Navigating conflict between pride in Aboriginal identity and external negativity
• Carrying forward family legacy and sense of service

• Impact of racism during primary school
• Lack of Aboriginal perspective in education (focus on colonization, Captain Cook projects)
• Struggles with shame and belonging
• Code-switching and hiding identity in unsupportive environments
• Importance of family and community in fostering pride

• Early experiences of racism, bullying (relating to Aboriginal and Chinese heritage)
• The role of family and community support in building confidence
• Connection between lived experience and academic/professional interest in psychology
• Mental health struggles in family history (grandmother’s depression, intergenerational impacts)
• Personal battles: low self-esteem, relationship difficulties, recovery from trauma

• Power and importance of connection during crisis
• Steps toward regaining autonomy and control
• Building supportive relationships outside toxic environments
• Advances in self-care: regaining interests, healthier routines, addressing eating disorders
• Gradual process of building resilience and confidence

• Impact of systemic racism and poverty (housing, education, social support)
• Inequity in government responses, resources, and societal structures
• Racism embedded in systems affecting Aboriginal families
• The importance (and gap) of culturally informed systems

• Definition and examples of the racial empathy gap
• Media’s role in perpetuating disparity in empathy and reporting
• Importance of accurate assessment for effective treatment
• Critiques of mainstream frameworks and need for culture-bound syndromes
• Negative consequences of misassessment in child protection and mental health

• Critique of “West is Best” and “White is Right” mentalities
• Misguided attempts at tokenistic inclusion of Aboriginal perspectives
• Need for systemic overhaul, genuine power-sharing, and cultural equity
• Challenges of addressing siloes vs interconnected systems in Aboriginal policy (e.g., Close the Gap)

• Positive outcomes when First Nations people lead program design
• Importance of safe spaces and empowerment in professional and community development
• Leading leadership and development programs with successful results
• Advocacy for elevating Aboriginal voices, genuine co-design, and decision-making power

• Artistic influences and background (family of artists and musicians)
• Role of art and creative writing/music in processing trauma and emotions
• Interest in art therapy as a modality for healing
• Healing power of storytelling, slam poetry, and creative arts in Indigenous and marginalized communities

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Adam Thompson, Director at Homes NSW, says you can’t bulldoze through Australia’s housing crisis—you need people at the heart of every decision.

Homes aren’t just buildings. They hold memories, connections, and shape entire communities. That’s why listening to those in social housing is central to his work.

Adam’s a proud “social housing kid” and stays connected to his roots—he knows firsthand how often tenants don’t feel heard, and he wants to shift that.

True engagement isn’t just a box-ticking exercise or defensively keeping “future complaints” at bay. It’s about actually learning from lived experience and letting it shape policy.

He insists that if you’re not honestly seeking input, don’t call it “engagement.” Call it consultation or a briefing—communities deserve clarity and honesty.

Building trust is about “yarn at the front, business at the back”: have real conversations before getting down to the practicalities. Genuine relationships make all the difference.

One-size-fits-all approaches don’t work. Every community is unique, so how you engage should fit their local needs. Sometimes it’s big town halls, sometimes it’s small group conversations.

Engagement helps people see their ideas brought to life, whether via improved services, safer design, or simply being listened to. That pride and ownership are real.

Leaders need to front up, communicate clearly, and handle tough conversations with conviction and authenticity. Trust comes from consistency and genuine care—not spin.

Homes NSW is embedding tenant involvement at all levels, investing in participation teams, and making engagement a sustained presence, not just a reaction to complaints.

Being honest about what’s possible, learning from Aboriginal engagement principles, and owning both wins and failures are all part of how real change happens.

At the end of the day, Adam reminds us: it’s not just about homes, it’s about people, memories, and the fabric of communities. That’s what real progress looks like.

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Kuyan and Sean form Impact Policy dive deep into lateral violence and anti racism, below is an outline of some of the topics they navigate together

2. Lateral Violence: Definitions and Prevalence

• Description of lateral violence and its recurring presence in various sectors and work environments
• Emphasis on the lack of nuanced understanding of the root causes
• Encouragement to view the issue at both surface and systemic levels

3. Root Causes and Systemic Issues

• Connection to colonization and genocide as foundational drivers of lateral violence
• Dismantling the myth that lateral violence is an “Aboriginal-only” issue
• Examination of environmental and systemic factors enabling lateral violence to persist
• Comparison with experiences in other marginalized communities globally

4. Understanding and Misunderstanding the Issue

• Noting that most people can give examples but lack depth in understanding origins and systemic components
• The role of non-Aboriginal systems and practices in perpetuating lateral violence
• Discussion of reactive versus proactive responses: addressing symptoms vs. tackling root causes

5. Difficulties Addressing Lateral Violence

• Tendency to address the issue at the individual level without systemic change
• Analogy: treating symptoms without curing the infection
• Challenges faced by non-Indigenous people in engaging with lateral violence due to lack of systemic understanding and fear

6. The Nuances and Workplace Triggers

• Importance of addressing both systemic and individual levels
• Non-Indigenous reluctance to get involved, and its consequences
• Workplace examples: “advice shopping,” elevation of some Aboriginal voices over others, recruitment and competition triggers
• Impact of lack of transparency in recruitment and funding decisions

7. Personal Experiences and Emotional Impact

• Sharing of personal and collective experiences of lateral violence within government and community
• Emotional toll: when lateral violence follows individuals home and permeates personal life and community connections
• Unique burdens experienced by Aboriginal people navigating workplace and community pressures

9. Transparency, Integrity, and Leadership

• Lack of transparency in decision-making as a systemic contributor
• The societal pattern in Australia of narrative control and withholding information
• The link between integrity, leadership, and willingness to be transparent

10. Cultural Dynamics, Elevation, and Diversity

• Problems with elevating individual voices or “leaders” over the diversity within communities
• Homogenization—misunderstanding of the multiplicity of Aboriginal experiences and viewpoints
• Tension arising from mismatches between workplace/sectoral elevation and community status

11. Conflict and Accountability

• Distinction between healthy conflict and lateral violence
• Traditional strengths of Aboriginal communities in conflict management and resolution
• Seeking accountability vs. tearing down individuals
• Reflection on how social and professional settings can foster unhealthy conflict compared to traditional or community-based resolution

12. Language and Concepts: ‘Staunch’, Anger, and Misapplied Strength

13. Systemic Pressures and Double Standards

14. Practical Solutions and Advice

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Episode: Transforming Systems from Within – A Conversation with Paul O’Reilly

Recorded on Bidjigal Country, this episode sees Paul O’Reilly (Deputy Secretary, NSW DCJ) join Sam Johnson and Kuyan Mitchell to tackle the big questions around community, justice, and leadership in the public sector.

We dig into the realities of youth justice and out of home care, focusing on the systemic overrepresentation of Aboriginal young people. Paul draws on his diverse background—from youth worker to senior leader—to explore what it means to lead with integrity, the necessity of sharing decision-making power, and how genuine reform requires both humility and practical action.

Whether you’re a policymaker, community advocate, or practitioner on the ground, this conversation offers hard-won lessons, inspiration, and real hope for change.

Key Topics:

• Paul O'Reilly’s personal journey from Ireland to frontline youth work in Sydney and 27 years in the public sector
• The realities and overrepresentation of Aboriginal youth in care and justice systems
• Systemic and institutional racism: recognition, impacts, and strategies for change
• Why sharing decision-making power and bringing community voices to the centre is essential
• The complexities of achieving systems reform inside government silos
• Opportunities for funding and supporting Aboriginal-led organisations and social enterprises
• Leadership lessons: humility, vulnerability, and championing lived experience
• Personal stories of post-traumatic growth and the ongoing connection to frontline practice
• Hopeful trends and what excites Paul about the future of the sector

Quotable Moments:

• “Statutory systems need to be as small as possible—kids and families should only have contact when necessary.”
• “Humility is an enormous strength if you actually want to make progress... it’s about modelling behaviour.”
• “It’s a white system full of black kids. And unless you’re willing to acknowledge that impact, you shouldn’t be in the system.”

Additional Resources:

• Acknowledgement of Country: This episode was recorded on Bidjigal Country and honours Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities.
• Learn more about Impact Policy
• Connect/Contact: To partner, collaborate, or learn more, email samjohnson@impactpolicyau.com or follow us on LinkedIn

Support & Community

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Join Sean and Kuyan along with Sam as they dive into the latest episode of the Impact Policy Podcast and together unpack key takeaways from the National Planning Congress in Darwin. Tune in for sharp insights on Aboriginal communities, planning, and community-led change.

Here's what you'll hear about in this episode:

First-hand reflections on the National Planning Institute of Australia Congress, including the growing presence of Aboriginal voices in the sector

The critical role of planning systems in both historical dispossession and empowering future land rights and cultural heritage

Real-world legacy issues still felt by Aboriginal communities due to past planning policies—plus examples of ongoing practical challenges

The importance of co-design, centering Aboriginal voices, and shifting from tokenistic engagement to genuine power-sharing in policy

Standout initiatives, case studies, and award-winning projects leading the way for culturally responsive planning in Australia

Don’t forget to subscribe, follow, and share if you find value in these discussions!

Impact Policy Podcast, Aboriginal communities, planning sector, National Planning Congress, cultural heritage, land rights, co design, community development, legacy issues, social policy, country, colonisation, planning system, native title, agency, country outcomes, community voice, infrastructure, social change, truth telling, co design principles, planning with country, policy, sector reform, impact, Roads to Home, Cumberland Plains, Knowledge Circle

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