This is the second part of Michael Gove’s conversation with Munira Mirza. After reflecting in part one on multiculturalism and the fractures in modern Britain, this second instalment turns to the question of leadership, and the lessons both Boris and Starmer should learn.

Munira reflects on Boris Johnson’s premiership, describing him as ‘a better man than many of his detractors would admit’ but acknowledging his foibles and lack of decisiveness at critical moments. Was he a good Prime Minister?

They go on to debate whether the wiring of the British state – from the Human Rights Act to the Equality Act – has made effective government harder, and whether Reform are right to call for repeal of both of these pieces of legislation.

Finally, Munira delivers a stark assessment of Britain’s political class, questioning whether the calibre of MPs is good enough, criticising the culture of risk-aversion in Westminster, and making the case for ‘radical candour’ in politics.

Produced by Oscar Edmondson.

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