Brought to You By:

• Antithesis – verify your system’s correctness without human review or traditional integration tests – and avoid bugs or outages.

• turbopuffer – a vector and full-text search engine built on object storage. It’s fast, cheap, and extremely scalable.

• WorkOS – everything you need to make your app enterprise ready.

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Few have made as big an impact on software engineering as this week’s guest on the Pragmatic Engineer podcast, Kent Beck. He created Extreme Programming, pioneered test-driven development (TDD), co-created JUnit, and is one of the authors of the famous ‘Agile Manifesto’. But these days, he's re-examining many ideas for the age of AI, and says we’re failing to accumulate trust during this new era at the same high rate as new code is being accumulated.

In this episode of the Pragmatic Engineer podcast, Kent and I dig into his journey from discovering Smalltalk in the early days of personal computing, to helping define modern software engineering practices. We explore the origins of TDD, design patterns, Extreme Programming, and Agile – along with some lessons learned at Apple and Facebook.

Kent explains why he believes software engineering is about far more than writing code, why no one yet knows exactly how engineers should work alongside AI agents, and how his "explore, expand, extract" framework can help engineers navigate major technology shifts.

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Timestamps

00:00 Intro

03:47 Human engineers aren’t going away

08:00 Kent's path into tech

13:50 Undergraduate and graduate studies

17:21 Kent’s first programming job

18:54 The rise and fall of Smalltalk

27:04 Working with Ward Cunningham

37:36 Design patterns

44:05 Working at Apple

51:08 CRC Cards

59:29 Testing tools in the language

1:04:22 The C3 project with Martin Fowler

1:09:54 Extreme Programming

1:16:25 Developing TDD

1:25:07 Writing the Agile Manifesto

1:30:00 Agile’s impact

1:32:40 Agile’s downside

1:37:32 The Dotcom Bust

1:44:30 Lessons from working at Facebook

1:59:44 Kent’s ‘Good to Great’ program at Facebook

2:06:07 Soft skills engineers need to learn

2:09:30 AI and the challenges of acceleration

2:15:53 Explore, expand, extract

2:22:33 What Kent is excited about

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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:

• Measuring developer productivity? A response to McKinsey – co-written with Kent Beck

• TDD, AI agents and coding with Kent Beck

• Paying down tech debt

• The past and future of modern backend practices

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Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.

Brought to You By:

• Antithesis – verify your system’s correctness without human review or traditional integration tests – and avoid bugs or outages.

• Sentry – application monitoring software considered “not bad” by millions of developers

• Google Cloud Run – run your code and host LLMs directly on top of Google’s scalable infrastructure, without having to worry about managing infra.

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Navdeep Singh – oftentimes better known as NeetCode – is the creator of NeetCode.io, one of the most popular coding interview preparation platforms and YouTube channels for software engineers. Before building NeetCode full-time, he worked as a software engineer at Amazon and Google.

In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with Neet to discuss his path from Amazon and Google to building his own startup, why he left Amazon after just two months, what he learned at Google, and the decision to leave a stable engineering career to bet on himself. We also discuss what coding interview preparation teaches beyond passing interviews, the value of going deep on difficult problems, and why systems thinking and domain expertise remain essential engineering skills in the age of AI.

Throughout the conversation, NeetCode makes the case that learning hard things is one of the single best investments an engineer can make, helping build the judgment and expertise that remain valuable no matter how the tools change.

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Timestamps

00:00 Intro

02:57 Neet’s take on coding interviews

06:41 Getting into tech

08:56 Why Neet isn't a fan of the CAP theorem

13:12 Quitting Amazon after two months

18:22 Google vs Amazon

22:26 The origins of NeetCode

25:27 Leaving Google to go all in on NeetCode

32:02 Why Neet doesn't fix every bug

39:26 The value of coding interview prep

42:57 Systems thinking and domain expertise

47:28 Hiring at Big Tech

52:15 Tech stack at Neetcode

57:57 The NeetCode redesign contest

1:01:46 The future of software engineers

1:09:04 Hot takes: AGI, AI skill erosion, personality traits

1:22:49 “Maybe some people should just give up”

1:24:39 How to be a standout engineer

1:27:55 Book recommendation

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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:

• Learnings from conducting ~1,000 interviews at Amazon

• How experienced engineers get unstuck in coding interviews

• The Reality of Tech Interviews in 2025

• Tech hiring: is this an inflection point?

• AI fakers exposed in tech dev recruitment: postmortem

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Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.

Brought to You By:

• Antithesis – verify your system’s correctness without human review or traditional integration tests – and avoid bugs or outages.

• WorkOS – everything you need to make your app enterprise ready.

• turbopuffer – a vector and full-text search engine built on object storage. It’s fast, cheap, and extremely scalable.

—

Robert Erez is a principal engineer at Octopus Deploy, and a longtime expert in CI/CD, deployment systems, and software delivery. Rob and I were also once colleagues on the Skype web team, working on large-scale deployments and release processes.

In this episode of The Pragmatic Engineer, I sit down with Rob to discuss how teams deploy software safely and efficiently at scale. We cover Kubernetes, GitOps, platform engineering, progressive delivery, feature flags, cloud development environments, and the growing role of AI in CI/CD workflows. We also get into the tradeoffs in different deployment approaches, why self-hosted software still matters for some organizations, and the recent evolution of software delivery practices.

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Timestamps

00:00 Intro

02:09 Canary deployments at Skype

05:01 Joining at Octopus Deploy

06:15 Continuous deployment

10:26 Why Kubernetes won

15:51 Kubernetes on-prem

18:50 How GitOps works

25:00 The uses and limitations of GitOps

31:04 The rise of platform teams

35:51 How AI is changing CI/CD

39:49 Progressive delivery explained

47:31 Rollbacks and roll-forwards

50:14 Feature flags

54:32 How development environments are evolving

57:40 Cloud development environments (CDEs)

1:03:45 Self-hosting CI/CD

1:09:25 Getting started with progressive delivery

1:11:15 Book recommendations

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The Pragmatic Engineer deepdives relevant for this episode:

• Kubernetes and retiring at the top with Kelsey Hightower

• The past and future of modern backend practices

• Microsoft is dogfooding AI dev tools’ future

• How Kubernetes is built with Kat Cosgrove

• How Linux is built with Greg KH

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Production and marketing by ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://penname.co/⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. For inquiries about sponsoring the podcast, email podcast@pragmaticengineer.com.