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Leading Notes Podcast

Leading Notes Podcast

By: Melissa Forbes
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Make music that matters.Copyright 2024 All rights reserved. Hygiene & Healthy Living Music Psychology Psychology & Mental Health Social Sciences
Episodes
  • 19. Why did we get so weird about singing, and what can we do about it? with Fiona Maria

    19. Why did we get so weird about singing, and what can we do about it? with Fiona Maria
    Aug 31 2026
    In this episode, Fiona joins Melissa to unpack why so many adults quietly believe they "can't sing", and what gets lost when we stop. They trace the individual, cultural, economic and technological forces that pushed singing out of everyday life, explore the idea of voice shame, and talk about why Fiona prefers to run singing circles rather than choirs. The conversation moves through the concept of singing as a "homecoming," the case for calling singing facilitators leaders, and practical ways to bring singing back into unexpected places—meetings, workplaces, aged care, and the school run. Key Topics Discussed Why singing dropped out of daily life: recorded music, smaller households, declining church attendance and hyper-individualismVoice shame – how childhood criticism becomes a lifelong story about not being a "singer"The difference between a choir and a singing circle, and why inclusion matters more than perfectionSinging as a "homecoming": reconnecting with a shared, primal human experienceWhy talking is an inefficient tool for connection compared with singing togetherReframing "singing facilitator" as "singing leader," and the case for singing as a leadership behaviourPractical ways to normalise singing: bringing it into workplaces, meetings, aged care and early childhood settingsThe link between group singing and perinatal mental health Notable Quotes "We therefore neglect singing at our peril." – Fiona Maria "Sing first, then talk, not the other way around." – Fiona Maria Resources Mentioned All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To by Fiona MariaThe Language of Leadership by Simon Lancaster (mentioned by Melissa) About Guest Fiona Maria is a singing facilitator, performer and author who lives and works on Gadigal land in Sydney, Australia. Through years of running singing circles in community and corporate settings, she became fascinated by why we've grown so uneasy about singing, and what it costs us individually and collectively to lose touch with it. Her debut book, All Children Sing Until They're Told Not To, explores the barriers—personal, cultural and economic—that stop people from thinking of themselves as singers, and makes the case for bringing singing back into everyday life. Connect with Guest Fiona's website Episode Highlights [00:00] Introducing Fiona Maria and her book[00:57] When and why we got "weird" about singing[02:26] The technological shift from home piano sing-alongs to recorded music[07:08] Voice shame and the vicious cycle of hesitancy[11:02] Singing circles vs choirs, and why the experience is the focus[13:36] Singing as a "homecoming"[19:23] Fiona's facilitation style: inclusion over perfection, safety as paramount[22:09] Reframing "facilitator" as "leader"[26:13] How to bring singing back into everyday contexts[31:07] Group singing and perinatal mental health[34:42] The magic wand question and a closing thought on connection
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    35 mins
  • 18. Leading from the inside out: Inclusion, belonging, and ending loneliness, with Enya Cai

    18. Leading from the inside out: Inclusion, belonging, and ending loneliness, with Enya Cai
    Jul 31 2026
    Melissa speaks with Enya Cai, General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network. With 26 choirs across Australia and a mission to end loneliness through group singing, Creativity Australia sits at a fascinating intersection of community music, social inclusion, and organisational leadership. Enya brings a rare perspective: a childhood spent in the Australian Girls Choir, a career spanning accounting, diversity and inclusion, government policy, and arts management, and a longstanding connection to Creativity Australia that began when she was a teenager volunteering with the organisation. In this conversation, she reflects on what community choir facilitators have in common with corporate leaders, how loneliness really shows up in the people who walk through choir doors, and why patience might be the most underrated skill in both music and life. Key Topics Discussed The With One Voice model: all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs focused on connection over musical perfectionThe skills that transfer between corporate leadership and choir facilitationHow Enya uses vocal warm-ups and arts-based activities in corporate leadership trainingWhy "human-centred" leadership faces pushback, and what's underneath that resistanceHow loneliness manifests in choir participants—and why most wouldn't identify as lonelyThe slow, patient process of belonging: how the choir model meets people where they areThe realities and complications of choir facilitation as work, including emotional wellbeing and financial sustainability Notable Quotes "The point of our choirs is not to be perfect in a musical way—it's to create connections and community wellbeing through what we know is a proven way of creating beautiful, meaningful, strong connections, and that is through singing together." "The skills required to lead in a corporate setting are just as useful, and in some cases essential, and already displayed in community music settings." "Loneliness can be voices in your head that tell you that no one wants to speak to you. Part of our work is to recognise those people and welcome them in." "Patience is one of the keys to my sustainability in this sector, but also one of the biggest lessons we can continue to learn through community music." "With one wave of my magic wand, I would like for our society to value music makers—and for them to be recognised and paid appropriately for that." Resources Mentioned With One Voice choirs — find a choir near you or enquire about facilitator training About Enya Cai Enya Cai is the General Manager of Creativity Australia, the national charity behind the With One Voice choir network—26 all-inclusive, all-abilities choirs across Australia with a mission to end loneliness through group singing. Her connection to the organisation goes back to her teenage years, when she first volunteered with the then-fledgling choir program. Since then, Enya has built a career that spans public policy in the Victorian government, diversity and inclusion at EY, freelance arts management, theatre producing, and leadership coaching for corporate clients. She holds a Bachelor of Commerce and Graduate Diploma of Chartered Accounting, and brings that financial and strategic acumen to the arts sector with genuine purpose. Outside of work, she loves discovering new restaurants and spending time with her cat, Jelly. Connect with Enya Cai Creativity Australia: creativityaustralia.org.auWith One Voice choirs: withonevoice.org.auLinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/enyacai/ Episode Highlights 00:01:13 — What Creativity Australia does and the With One Voice mission to end loneliness02:53 — Enya's journey: from the Australian Girls Choir to accounting, diversity and inclusion, government, and back to the arts07:35 — The shared skills of corporate leaders and choir facilitators09:47 — Pushback on human-centred leadership, and what's really behind the resistance11:31 — How Enya starts leadership training: self-reflection first13:33 — Using vocal warm-ups and arts-based play in corporate training sessions16:24 — Why workplaces feel so constraining—physically and spiritually19:13 — Singing groups as workplaces: navigating the real complexities of facilitation19:39 — How loneliness actually shows up in choir participants22:19 — A story of slow, patient transformation: from sitting at the back of the room to performing on stage26:02 — How to join a With One Voice choir or train as a facilitator
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    34 mins
  • 17. Confidence, confidence, confidence! On leading musically inclusive activities, with Dr Graham Sattler CF

    17. Confidence, confidence, confidence! On leading musically inclusive activities, with Dr Graham Sattler CF
    Jun 30 2026
    For Graham Sattler, being a musical inclusion advocate means building a life's work around a single conviction: that music is the activity with the fewest impediments to participation. In this episode, Melissa talks with Graham about the journey that took him from the opera stage and the orchestral trombone section to the heart of community music practice, and the moment in Orange, New South Wales, that crystallised everything. Graham shares what he found when his Churchill Fellowship took him across eight countries investigating best-practice community music leadership training, and why the musicians he met were so strikingly clear about the why, how, and what of their work. He reflects on confidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as essential leadership qualities; on generosity, compassion, and selflessness as the values that underpin effective practice; and on what happens to a community when leadership changes and those qualities disappear. The conversation also turns to orchestras — Graham is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra — and what it takes for professional performance organisations to engage authentically with community, rather than as a funding exercise. Honest, thoughtful, and full of hard-won insight, this is a conversation about what it really means to lead music that matters. Key Topics Discussed What "musical inclusion advocate" means and where that framing came fromMusic as the most accessible participatory activity — and how to respond when that idea is challengedThe move from Sydney to Orange, NSW, and the moment community music came into sharp focusThe training gap in community music leadership across Australia and the Asia-PacificWhat Graham observed in leadership training programs across the US, Canada, Ireland, Scotland, England, Norway, Portugal, and ArmeniaConfidence, courage, and intrinsic motivation as pillars of effective community music leadershipThe values common to the best community music leaders: generosity, compassion, and selflessnessWhat happens to a community when leadership changes — and why training mattersProfessional orchestras and community engagement: honest assessment of where the sector is and where it falls shortCommunity music as 60% of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra's organisational output Notable Quotes "Music is the most accessible group activity that human beings can engage in — it has the fewest impediments to participation." "Whatever they bring into the room is enough. Human beings are profoundly and intrinsically musical, and music is, similarly, profoundly human." "I discovered what it was to be answerable to, responsible to, identifiable community — and that's when it really crystallised." "I hadn't teased courage out of confidence before — but they are quite different things." "When those qualities aren't there, people notice. People aren't stupid. They can spot a phony." About Graham Sattler Graham Sattler is an Australian musician, educator, and orchestra CEO whose career has taken him from the opera stage to the conductor's podium to the heart of community music practice. He has worked as a trombonist and singer with the Australian Opera, as a conductor of orchestras and choirs across Australia and internationally, and spent over a decade as director of regional conservatoriums in New South Wales — leading music programs with aged, disability, and at-risk youth communities. He holds a PhD in Music Education, a Master of Performance (Conducting), and a Graduate Certificate in the Psychology of Risk. In 2019, Graham was awarded a Churchill Fellowship to investigate best-practice community music leadership training programs across eight countries. He is currently CEO of the Christchurch Symphony Orchestra in Aotearoa New Zealand, where community engagement makes up 60% of the organisation's output. Connect with Graham LinkedIn Christchurch Symphony Orchestra Episode Highlights 00:01:27 — What "musical inclusion advocate" means, and how Graham arrived at that description00:03:55 — Responding to the challenge: is music really the most accessible activity?00:05:31 — Why the word "made" is the alarm bell for everything community music stands against00:08:14 — The move to Orange, NSW, and the moment inclusion became central00:13:25 — Why the leadership training gap matters — and what's lost when leadership changes00:16:24 — What confidence actually looks like in community music leadership00:21:19 — Confidence versus courage: two different things00:23:09 — Whatever they bring into the room is enough00:30:18 — The common values of effective community music leaders: generosity, compassion, selflessness00:33:04 — Orchestras and community: an honest assessment00:40:08 — The three closing questions: human connection, one song to unite a room, and a magic wand
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    43 mins
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